Wednesday, February 15, 2012

Alpha Mail: the necessary distinction

Not only is King A's attempted criticism illogical, it reveals that he doesn't grasp the difference between "social" and "socio-sexual":
Yeah. I got just about the reaction I expected from this blog. An indication of the value of a publication is the quality of reader attracted to it....

Of course there are different styles of leadership. The question is, why does this particular trait require the fabrication of an entirely new category of man? That was never adequately explained, and Occam's razor says it is an embarrassing attempt to project one's cherished idiosyncrasies over an already widely established method of communication.
Since King A is not only a regular reader, but a commenter, he is doing little more than savaging his own tail in a futile attempt to take an irrelevant shot at this blog. And everyone who reads it. Based on this information, what can we conclude about his socio-sexual rank, everyone?

I find his inability to understand the need to define the Sigma class to be more interesting, in that unlike most casual observers of Game, he doesn't confuse the sexual with the socio-sexual, but the social instead. The need for the Sigma class should be obvious, since it is a statistically significant observed socio-sexual type. It's not merely that it happens to describe my own "cherished idiosyncracies", but also those of many men who have similar socio-sexual success despite behaving in a very, very different way than the more conventional and common Alpha.

As to why the "particular trait" requires the category, Omega's post makes it perfectly clear. Sigmas are introverts. Introverts do not think like extroverts, they do not behave like extroverts, and they have a fundamentally different psychological profile than extroverts. What works for extroverts does not work for introverts and vice-versa.

In Game terms, telling an introverted Delta to mimic the behavior of an extroverted Alpha not only isn't going to work very well, even if it does work, it's probably going to make life miserable for the introverted pseudo-Alpha. Since 75% of the population is extroverted, it should be no wonder that conventional Game which doesn't account for the introvert/extrovert divide works pretty well for most people. But this underlines the importance of broadening the concepts so that it has the chance of successfully addressing the other 25% as well.

And it's particularly important given that successful Sigmas are far less inclined to care about their social success, much less impart it to others. For example, excluding Spacaebunny, I spoke a grand total of six words to five different adults today even though I was out and about in four different locations for several hours. If I didn't share information on this blog, it would never leave my mind. There will never be a series of Sigmas travelling around the country doing speeches, conducting classes, and selling videos; aside from Roissy, who shuns even interviews, the Pick-Up Artist community is obviously a collection of extroverts, who, like most extroverts, have no clue at all about how introverts can be successful except by mimicking extroverts.

46 comments:

Markku said...

I want to see if he uses the you are talking about me, therefore I must be important -retort. We wouldn't want to break our long streak of that always happening, now would we?

artie said...

Extroverts never comprehend that there can be something like introverts.

I also think that introvert/extrovert might be misleading terms. Extroverts are much more about themselves and how they perceive the world. While empathy is not strange to them it's rather a 'how do I make the opposite feel' than 'how does the oppositve feel'. For extroverts, the world is inside of them, for introverts, the world is outside of them.

I like the definition that introverts look out a window, extroverts look into a mirror.

Vox said...

No, that's always exciting. I swear, a psychiatrist who wants to drum up business need only trawl through the comments of a few blogs and he'll find all the psychologically troubled he needs to pay his mortgage in hours, if not minutes.

Vox said...

"I also think that introvert/extrovert might be misleading terms."

The terms were defined and settled a long time ago. Deal with it. Everyone knows what they mean.

modernguy said...

Yes, how can introverts make themselves attractive to women, that is the question.

So where is the answer? Vox's advice seems to be alternately projecting airs of moodiness and haughtiness, saying little, and otherwise driving a Porsche and playing in band, or something. Having a wealthy father would probablt help. Certainly, actual charm has nothing to do with it.

artie said...

"Yes, how can introverts make themselves attractive to women, that is the question."

The question that 'Game' should answer?

Markku said...

So where is the answer? Vox's advice seems to be alternately projecting airs of moodiness and haughtiness, saying little, and otherwise driving a Porsche and playing in band, or something.

You misunderstand. You can't aspire to be sigma. The simple fact of wanting to be it already means that you need other people's admiration. The rank is there for the sake of completeness, not as a goal.

For an introvert, the answer is to either accept your present socio-sexual rank or to train yourself to be more like an extrovert.

artie said...

"The terms were defined and settled a long time ago. Deal with it. Everyone knows what they mean."

Don't want to redefine any terms. Just want to point out that even though everyone knows what they mean, fewer comprehend and understand it.

Vox said...

For an introvert, the answer is to either accept your present socio-sexual rank or to train yourself to be more like an extrovert.

I don't think that's true. Now, it may mean that the introvert should focus more on the material, such as improving his physique, starting a band, or whatever. And that's already part of Game.

So, the conclusion is that the introvert should focus on those aspects of Game that are in sync with his personality type and not waste time and effort on those that are not.

And the fact that there are Sigmas who are as successful as Alphas should provide some evidence that the challenge can be worth it. If you look at Roissy's actual stories, his behavior is often more Sigma than conventional Alpha.

Also, most introverts can learn to turn on to a pseudo-extroversion for short periods of time. Introvert Game would be built around maximizing one's external energy.

Jack Dublin said...

I have noticed that extroverts will often try to 'fix' their introvert friends. It seems to surprise them that anyone could be happy spending hours in seclusion and away from all, or almost all, human contact, let alone desire it.

Markku said...

Also, most introverts can learn to turn on to a pseudo-extroversion for short periods of time.

That is exactly why I wrote "more LIKE an extrovert". There is no way to avoid the pain of being with other people.

I think sigma usually comes as a stage after alpha, when you get it all and notice it wasn't worth it in the first place.

artie said...

"For an introvert, the answer is to either accept your present socio-sexual rank or to train yourself to be more like an extrovert."

...and setting yourself up for utter failure. The introvert would have a much better chance working towards sigma than working towards alpha. And it would most probably be a lot more fun too. Inner game is for introverts.

Ian Ironwood said...

For an introvert, the answer is to either accept your present socio-sexual rank or to train yourself to be more like an extrovert.

I'd say, rather, that the response of Game to introverts is to play to their particular strengths (most introverts have some talent, after all) and focus on converting that strength to some demonstration of high value, followed with enough practiced social interaction to close the deal.

There are plenty of introverts who get laid, and playing the "moody dude" card is only one way of going about it. Writers and artists are often introverts, less so performing artists and musicians. Since art and writing tend to be solitary pursuits that have a great appeal to an introvert, then the problem becomes how to publish ("make public") and claim credit for your work.

That seems to be an issue with a lot of introverts, an unwillingness to seek credit, or even take credit, for their successes. And without demonstrated success, gathering the confidence to break the trap of introversion long enough to secure a mate seems insurmountable to some.

Game doesn't seek to turn us all into All Alpha, All the Time, nor change who we fundamentally are. But it is about getting over fear. There's a big difference between an introvert who seeks solitude out of the need to explore his inner universe and create from the results and an introvert who stays up to 3 am every night brooding into a computer screen and wallowing in their loneliness because they fear the sting of rejection so much that they've given up even trying.

RM said...

It is worth noting that the differences between introverted and extroverted leadership styles is significant enough that there have been studies done to determine the difference. They found that extroverts are better leaders when they lead passive followers (employees). Introverts are better leaders when they lead proactive followers.

artie said...

Which ratio is higher: introvert/sigma or extrovert/alpha?

Vox said...

Which ratio is higher: introvert/sigma or extrovert/alpha?

Almost surely the latter. There appear to be more than 3x Alphas per Sigma. This makes sense, given that the introvert faces more challenges to reach socio-sexual success, both internal and external.

Vox said...

Sorry, read that backwards. The ratio of introvert/sigma is likely higher than extrovert/alpha, for the reasons given.

enna. said...

Vox, do you think that extroversion/introversion has any bearing on female SMV?

Vox said...

Vox, do you think that extroversion/introversion has any bearing on female SMV?

Yes, extroverts are overrated, especially in high school and college. If you want to maximize your own SMV, focus on the introverted girls who don't bother wearing makeup or dressing well.

Some of them clean up in a spectacular manner. And by spectacular, I mean just that, we're not talking "cute gamer girl here." By way of example, Susan posted pictures of the Victoria's Secret model who went to school with her son that no one paid attention to at the time.

Look for the bone structure, not the clothes and the makeup.

modernguy said...

"You misunderstand. You can't aspire to be sigma. The simple fact of wanting to be it already means that you need other people's admiration. The rank is there for the sake of completeness, not as a goal."

Nice one Yoda. Point totally missed you have.

modernguy said...

It's interesting, one way of telling that Vox might actually have been a "Sigma" is his total ineptitude (or reluctance) at actually describing what the "Game" of a "Sigma" would be.

Roissy was absolutely right on one point. It's not so much self-confidence that's intriguing, it's irrational self-confidence. Self-confidence in the face of contrary indicators.

It's men who, although they might be idiots on every other point, are so conceited and have such a lack of conscientiousness that they think they are right about everything, and admit nothing if they are ever proven wrong (often not even bothering to consider the point if they sense it might be dangerous to their sense of superiority), that do well with women. American cultural poverty has elevated the village fool to a sage. Game works because in America (and increasingly in the rest of the world) the Anglo-Saxon pathology of attitude before everything prevails.

artie said...

"It's interesting, one way of telling that Vox might actually have been a "Sigma" is his total ineptitude (or reluctance) at actually describing what the "Game" of a "Sigma" would be."

Interesting thought. I supect in the context of Game, Vox is much more a scientist* than an engineer. He stated several times that this blog is more about the theoretical aspect of Game than it is about practical help.

* I say scientist for the kick of it. I could have said philosopher. Some would say Keyboard Jockey.

JCclimber said...

I'm not sure where the 75% extrovert estimate is coming from, my understanding is that it is nearly 50/50, but a certain number of introverts fake extrovert traits to get ahead.

Go to some other cultures where extroversion traits are not as richly rewarded, and it is much closer to 50/50. Many of my Japanese friends are on the introvert side of the spectrum. I'm sure my extroversion can irritate them sometimes.

Perhaps the saving grace is that I generally can keep my mouth shut for extended periods of time. Since I've found few who are able to keep up with my thoughts anyway.

Anonymous said...

"Vox February 15, 2012 10:50 AM said...
...
Also, most introverts can learn to turn on to a pseudo-extroversion for short periods of time. Introvert Game would be built around maximizing one's external energy."



Just to make the point even though many of us here already know introversion is not an inability to be charming it is about not needing to be with other people. Or as wikipedia puts it, introversion is not about social discomfort but rather social preference. Introversion does not mean they are shy but merely prefer fewer social activities.

I describe it to people in the following way.
Extroverts gain energy by being around other people.
Introverts are drained by being around other people.
That's the main difference.

It is also about a need for external validation.
Extroverts need it.
Introverts do not.

Extroverts want to be told they did a good job.
Introverts already know they did a good job, they do not need a pat on the head.



As far as game for an introvert I see it as more about what not to do rather than about what you need to do or how you need to do it. They can easily internalize all of the advice in regards to behaviors to avoid. They also easily learn the red pill lessons of a woman's true nature. Both of these things are the building blocks of game.

I also say introverts are not at an across the board disadvantage by default with respect to employing many principles of game.

They have their own strengths. Introverts are strong empaths, they can use that to great effect for frame control. For me personally I find that engaging a woman's imagination and emotions is an easy thing to do. Run hamster run.

Introverts also tend to be about skill mastery. Just going about your business with no other concern than doing what you like doing and doing it well is a huge display of higher value to the right woman. Within their sphere the introvert is king.

Athor Pel

R. Bradley Andrews said...

Would introversion also impact the goal in the area of game?

It seems like the extrovert would want far more contact, but that may still be leaving out a part of the equation.

I always come down in the middle of the extravert/introvert evaluation, but I definitely would prefer to be alone and recharge that way, thus making me an introvert.

I am not sure how being able to act outgoing in certain situations fits with that. Those are rarely forced, except perhaps at the very start.

Koanic said...

Agree 100%. I have been beating this drum for months.

Aeoli Pera said...

I suggest "diet" as a better model for introversion/extraversion.

Every psyche requires a measure of both solitude and society to stay healthy, but the requirements of daily life pay no heed to our sensibilities. So introverts, for example, are often oversaturated with social nutrients and starving for psychological distance.

It's not so strict a division as we often assume, as adduced by the introvert's tendency to enjoy written correspondence (especially forums!). That's still social behavior; the important difference is that psychological distance between the correspondents is increased.

In the abstract, I conceptualize E/I needs as a distribution rather than a discrete marker. E.g. Vox's waveform would be a spike on the introverted side, with a long tail on the extraverted side.

Toby said...

Since King A is not only a regular reader, but a commenter, he is doing little more than savaging his own tail in a futile attempt to take an irrelevant shot at this blog. And everyone who reads it. Based on this information, what can we conclude about his socio-sexual rank, everyone?
Gamma

Badger said...

I posted on one of the most influential and expository articles I've ever seen on the topic:

https://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/caring-for-your-introvert/

Badger said...

"Yes, how can introverts make themselves attractive to women, that is the question."

I just had a thought on this: extroverts can employ external game tactics with great flair to build attraction and express value.

But introverts don't do that well; inner game is the key. Develop real value, be resolutely confident in it, make every word count, and exude value.

One benefit of introversion for me is that it's fairly easy for me to walk away from talking to a woman, or to keep verbal aloofness.

Badger said...

What a prison it must be to be a shy extrovert - craving social contact, but compelled against it at the same time.

modernguy said...

"Develop real value, be resolutely confident in it, make every word count, and exude value."

That's not game. And what kind of "value" are you talking about? The whole point of game is to simulate rockstar status because most men don't have it. Saying something like "just become a rockstar!" doesn't help anyone with anything.

Anonymous said...

"modernguy February 16, 2012 2:09 PM said...

"Develop real value, be resolutely confident in it, make every word count, and exude value."

That's not game. And what kind of "value" are you talking about? The whole point of game is to simulate rockstar status because most men don't have it. Saying something like "just become a rockstar!" doesn't help anyone with anything."



Wow, you're stupid. Do you have a job? Are you able to keep a job?
The reason I ask is you're so demonstrably stupid I wouldn't trust you to walk my dog.

Athor Pel

modernguy said...

Pel - Demonstrably? Who speaks like that? Did you pick that up from VD? Take your mouth off his balls for a minute and get some fresh air. It's poor style.

modernguy said...

"Just going about your business with no other concern than doing what you like doing and doing it well is a huge display of higher value to the right woman. Within their sphere the introvert is king."

By the way moron, game is about distilling the the factors that attract women in general and using that knowledge to increase your attractiveness to them. Not doing some shit you like and hoping some woman somewhere is going to be into it. Nice try at getting those neurons to create a spark though.

Anonymous said...

moderngyno,

You didn't answer my question. Do you have a job?

Athor Pel

modernguy said...

Pel your jabs are ponderous. You're either old, or just stupid. Hit the gym bro. You're a "midwit"!

IndyGuy77 said...

modernguy: don't you ever get tired of your Vox obsession?

Just because he lets you post here doesn't mean you should. Or that you're the least bit useful or interesting other than an example of behavior to avoid.

Anonymous said...

Vox FYI

Hermann Hesse thoroughly examined the concept here referred to as Sigma in his novel, Steppenwolf from 1927.

King A said...

Please don't do me the dishonor of regarding me as a regular reader or commenter of your middling online mishmash board when "sporadic" and "glancer" would better fit the bill.

The concept of this site has great promise -- a gang blog facilitates dialectic -- but horrible execution. It now appears the failure is based primarily on the category-busting delusions of grandeur indulged by the host and seconded by his omega commentary cheer-squad. You need to regularly produce quality product to attract quality audiences, as Roissy does.

I don't come to pick on the chumps, I come to resist incipient redefinition of a solid and practical principle by chumps to excuse their chumpdom. To predictable reaction. I know, I know, that's so gamma-delta of me with a dash of lambda.

Let me know when the concept of "sigma" gains currency. Or when it is even used outside the cloisters of this omega phantasmagorium. Enjoy the semantical circle jerk. Circle jerks can be fun, I guess.

Anonymous said...

"modernguy February 18, 2012 7:52 AM said...
Pel your jabs are ponderous. You're either old, or just stupid. Hit the gym bro. You're a "midwit"!"



You still didn't answer the question.

Athor Pel

Desert Cat said...

King A, every time I drop by this blog to catch up, there you are, spouting the same old same old.

You're kidding yourself.

The CronoLink said...

Please don't do me the dishonor of regarding me as a regular reader or commenter of your middling online mishmash board

And yet, here you are once again. Guess who's dishonoring you?

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