Thursday, February 23, 2012

Alpha Mail: be careful what you wish for

Anonymous is forced to confront the bitter plight of the woman who successfully lands a handsome, sexually attractive man in marriage:
I have seen you give guidence to some guys and I was hoping you could help me because I am a women and admitedly get emotional. I have children and am a fulltime Mother, so these are very hard questions because they come from a place where upsetting the applecart, so to speak, is something to be done in only the most dire of circumstances.

My Husband is in a situation where he works on a daily basis with several women. He works with one and then the others are in his office. He takes the tack of being brotherly with them. He is very friendly. This has often been a problem for me, but he insists that it is common in his work place (I worked there, I know it is and there are a lot of affairs there as well) but I would prefer he was a bit more reserved out of deference to being married and to me.

He recently listened to a voice mail on speaker from one of these women and she said "Hey, its me, call me back." She said it in a way that made my hackles go up. I confronted him on it and he told me I was crazy. Then he said he can't force her to say "hello, I am so and so."

The problem is, this is just another time where he has been over familiar with female co-workers. He went away to a class of 20 men and four women and he studied with...one of the women. Get what I mean?

And since he knows that I don't like it, he simply doesn't tell me anything. So I trust him less.

He says he is not having sex with these women, he is not cheating, he loves me and our family but that it is just the way the work place is. Knowing it would piss me off, but knowing that it would be more awkward to not do so, he added her and the other co-workers to our facebook page.

It is a situation where he would rather ignore or piss me off then anyone else. I have simply had enough. It will not change because he thinks I am wrong.

All it does is we get into a fight and he goes to work with women slobbering over him and telling him how spoiled I am. He then comes home and tells me how spoiled I am because I ask him to help me with something and I am covered with mess and have sick children. In other words, this "spoiled" attitude toward me is not coming from reality.

Got any advice? You say women are emotional, and we are, but we also can sense things. I find these things out. Over and over. Am I susposed to ignore them?

It appears I am if I am to continue in this marriage. I know it is hard being married to an attractive and susccessful guy. While he outright rebuffs sexual invitations, he has no problem with pissing me off in order to not piss off other random women.

What is your take on this? I would love to hear I am crazy and this is all in my head.
My take is that you are married to a man with a relatively high Sexual Market Value who has maintained or increased his value over the course of the marriage while you have not. This growing gap between your relative SMVs has made you sensitive, jealous, suspicious, and from the way you describe it, increasingly unpleasant to be around. This does not, however, mean that you are crazy or that it is all in your head.

There are some basic principles to keep in mind here.

1) Mises on Human Action: "Since nobody is in a position to substitute his own value judgments for those of the acting individual, it is vain to pass judgment on other people's aims and volitions. No man is qualified to declare what would make another man happier or less discontented. The critic either tells us what he believes he would aim at if he were in the place of his fellow; or, in dictatorial arrogance blithely disposing of his fellow's will and aspirations, declares what condition of this other man would better suit himself, the critic."

2) A man does not answer to his wife. A wife does answer to her husband. This is both Biblical principle and a fundamental reality of Game. A man cannot be simultaneously a) responsible for a woman and b) answer to her.

3) One can only control one's own actions. One can merely hope to influence the actions of another individual.

4) Men tend to mirror the emotions and demeanors of those with whom they are interacting.

5) Men tend to keep their negative opinions of their wives to themselves unless sufficiently angered or pressed.

So how do these five principles apply here? First, it is pointless to speculate about how you would behave if you were in his shoes. You are not only two different people, but because you are married and people tend to marry, if not opposites, at least complementary personalities, it should be no surprise that he behaves in a very different manner than you do, or than you would like.

For example, I am a notoriously standoffish individual. I don't want anyone touching me and it would seldom occur to me to touch someone else except in a formal, parental, or sexual sense. Spacebunny found it rather humorous that some of our more affectionate female friends would say "I'm going to hug you now" in order to let me brace myself for impact. And as you might expect, Spacebunny is a much more friendly and affectionate individual than I am, so it took us a little while to adjust to each other's expectations of acceptable behavior in public. It wasn't difficult, because we both knew the other person had a different perspective and we both attempted to understand and accommodate that perspective. I do not get the impression that you have any interest whatsoever in understanding or accommodating his perspective here, you simply want him to accede to your preferences because you are his wife and therefore have the right to dictate that your preferences shall apply. But if he was the nebbishy, cowardly sort of man to whom his wife's word is law, neither you nor the women at work would find him attractive, so that's clearly not going to happen.

Second, I have the impression that you have gone about attempting to convince your husband to change his alluring ways by presenting your perspective like a prosecuting attorney to a man on trial rather than like a well-loved subject making a request to her king. Guess which approach tends to be much more successful with men, especially men who hold positions of responsibility and authority? It doesn't matter what you think your "rights" are - and women do tend to make a very foolish habit of standing on imaginary rights that exist nowhere but in their own heads - what matters is what approach is more likely to achieve a more successful outcome. Do you think your husband would be anywhere nearly as friendly and responsive to his female co-workers if they were regularly presenting him with imperious demands and declaring their rights as his fellow employees? I should also note that I think it is potentially very problematic that you refer or imply several times to ending the marriage over what very well may be literally nothing.

Third, your husband is, like every other man, woman, and child on the planet, always going to do whatever he decides he wants to do. Deal with that inescapable fact as it is a necessary aspect of the human condition. The trick, and it is an art that many women have mastered over the years, is to convince him that he wants to do what you want him to do. Think about this: throughout history, many men have met demands to modify their behavior with stubborn defiance, even at the cost of their lives. And yet, women have often been able to wrap those very same men around their fingers and get them to do whatever they want through the arts of seduction and manipulation. While men usually utilize a direct approach, in most cases, an indirect approach works better for women. Your present approach quite clearly isn't achieving the results you would like. Therefore, logic dictates that you try a different one.

Fourth, if the women at work are being pleasant and deferential to your husband, while you are pouting, being unpleasant and demanding of him, who do you think he is going to prefer to be around? Who do you think he is more willing to please? I remember riding home from work with my father, seeing him laughing and joking and smiling throughout, and then, moments after he walked into the house, heard my mother snapping at him about something or other. In an instant, all the good humor and joie de vivre disappeared from his face and he was snapping right back at her, his mood as foul as hers.

And fifth, in the comments you referred to having let yourself get out of shape. The chances are reasonable that your husband finds this embarrassing and that he is embarrassed by your appearance, even though he would probably rather get his teeth pulled without anesthetics than admit it to you or even to himself. (In other words, resist the temptation to ask, if he has any sense at all he will lie to you if he feels that way.) Men not only judge themselves by their wives, they are judged by others that way too. Rise to the level of the potential competition, don't sit in front of the television and tell yourself that because you managed to get someone to put a ring on your finger a while ago, you no longer have to put much effort into your appearance.

Does all this mean that you should simply suffer jealous agonies in silence like a good little Christian wifey until your husband has an affair and dumps your lumpy posterior? Not at all! But you really have to realize that you can only dicate your own behavior and only he can decide to modify his own. And remind yourself that you are fortunate, you have a husband who not only loves you and his family, but is so desirable that other women actively covet him. Isn't that distinctly preferable to one that nobody wants, including you?

So, my recommendation is that you drop the subject entirely for at least the next month. Focus on making yourself more attractive, more pleasant, and more satisfying to be around than the women in his workplace. Try to up your sex game; you don't have to do it every night, but make sure it's frequent, enthusiastic, and try throwing a curve ball once a week. If you're on the rag, use those evenings to improve your oral skills rather than viewing it as the wife's monthly week off. And remember, you're not doing this for him, you're doing this for you and for your marriage. Remind yourself that most of those women would probably change places with you in a heartbeat if given the opportunity, as the office life always looks significantly more glamorous and exciting from the outside than it does from inside its ceaselessly tedious and soul-sucking reality. After all, you used to work there too and it doesn't sound as if you hesitated to leave it in favor of your current - and, I will add - much more important occupation.

And get yourself to the gym too. Make the time five days a week. Focus on lifting weights more than running, stop the snacking, and turn yourself into a wife that he can't help but be proud of. The fact that you may have been once doesn't make you one today anymore than the middle-aged bald guy with the potbelly is still the star running back of his high school.

Then, once you've improved your physique, your sex life, and your demeanor, you'll likely be in a position where you can ask him, politely, for reasonable behavioral modifications. But think carefully about what you're requesting. Do you really want to make Facebook an issue? And can you honestly expect anyone to be less friendly to his female co-workers than he is to his male ones? As others have suggested, I would recommend making requests that concern his behavior towards you rather than his behavior towards others, and I suspect that at least a portion of it is in reaction to the way you are behaving towards him. But I don't think it is at all unreasonable, for example, to ask that he leave his work at work and tell his co-workers, male and female, that if they need to contact him outside of work hours, they should do so via email rather than calling his home.

And rather than taking this as criticism, I suggest that it is good news, because your behavior is something you can much more easily change. Now, it's entirely possible that I am wrong, that your behavior has been impeccable and your husband is a sociopath who is having sex with all of the women and half of the men in his office. I couldn't possibly know as I have precisely zero reliable evidence concerning your situation. But, assuming that you have described it accurately, I think you can go a long way towards improving the situation by first concentrating on modifying your own behavior, and then, making the occasional polite request concerning his own. Being jealous and suspicious isn't going to make your marriage better, it is instead likely to increase the chances that you will help bring about the very fate you fear.

Never forget that under the current legal regime, neither of you have any rights in a marriage except those that your mate freely chooses to grant you, and which can be withdrawn at any time. All the law really guarantees is a reasonable expectation of a woman's claim on a man's income should the marriage end.

117 comments:

Pablo said...

Anyone else think she's projecting her hypergamy onto her husband? As in, she knows instinctively what she'd be doing if the roles were reversed, so surely he's doing the same?

Just sayin'.

Jean-Luc LeGame said...

Pablo has a point.

It also just looks like a case of someone never being happy, even when they have what they know they should and do want. She's got an attractive, popular, successful man. He provides everything she needs and wants. She's a stay at home mom, so everything she has is coming from him. Yet she's still not happy. The selfishness is staggering. She objectively has everything she should want, but her mind still finds ways to make more demands. Right now the demand happens to be that he stop talking with female coworkers (insane and impossible if you want to keep your job). If he wasn't friendly with female coworkers, I'd bet she'd find something else to be unhappy about.

Nate said...

VD.. We don't through Mises at women.

The LP 999/Linda said...

Excellent analysis and advice. The Mises quote was helpful, I liked it.

Toby said...

VD,

You need to simplify the Mises quote in your own simple words.

Nate said...

Snowflake.

Stickwick said...

Excellent on all points, Vox.

I will only add that I strongly recommend Anonymous read The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands by Dr. Laura. Early in my marriage, I started to slide in Anon's direction, and finally realized exactly what you said -- my husband was mirroring my attitude. The book was a big help in turning things around.

Stingray said...

WW,

I have a much better idea of what is bothering you so much now and I get it. You are feeling neglected and I think that is legitimate. I think you are doing mostly right. Keep doing it. A couple of suggestions: If he wants to unwind when he gets home, even though this may seem counter intuitive, let him. Completely and utterly. Cook him a nice dinner, look nice, keep the kids quite and let him completely relax and even stay away. Be available if he needs you emotionally, and bring him things to help him relax. Otherwise, just leave him alone. Give this a shot for a few days. Sometimes a man just needs space and while it is needed, they begin to see what they are missing in you. This is not easy to do because it can feel like you are giving him the world and you are not getting anything in return. Work through the pain and ignore the hell out of it. I can only speak for my own marriage here, but often time when I felt like I was being neglected, I wasn't, at all. My husband was just so completely burnt that he had nothing else to give. So I gave him everything. After a few days, sometimes longer, he would pay so much attention to me, it was astounding. He just needed to . . . be, for a time.

Don't get angry, don't think about all of this stuff you are doing and what you are not getting back from it. It's not about you and DO NOT let your mind let it become about you at all. Try it and see what happens. As has been said here, you can only change you and how you react to the situation. I wish you luck. If I think of anything, I will let you know.

(Sorry for the double comment of two posts, but wanted to make this point.)

Vox said...

You need to simplify the Mises quote in your own simple words.

I did. "it should be no surprise that he behaves in a very different manner than you do, or than you would like."

Toby said...

You're right.
How could I missed that? tsk tsk

Anonymous said...

I agree with the projected hypergamy argument Pablo proposes. I also relate very much to the situation presented - I'm not a super alpha by any means but I relate well to women and female friends tend to annoy my wife; likewise I'm in good shape and she has let herself go. Following Althol's map I've improved my sex rank but she hasn't tried to follow my lead. I can see my wife projecting her identity onto me, and where it doesn't match she has problems.

Anonymous said...

Vox,

I was terrified when I read the title, but crying in gratitude by the end :) Thank you very, very much. The Mises quote finally got to me. I think my Husband has said as much to me :)

Thank you for the action plan. That is the most valueable part.

I saw some very bad stuff in my parents marriage and if I even get a whiff I get scared in my own. I do not want to repeat that for our marriage, nor for the poison it inflicts on my children and their future. But I didn't know what was wrong or how to fix it.

I have yet to see a marriage that isn't a women running her Husband nuts so I don't see many real life examples to follow. Any advice to Christian women usually reccomends covering your head and basically fading into the woodwork and that kind of made him head for the hills.

I am also guilty of not doing the things I used to to be attractive because they are costly. And though we can afford it, we are both concerned about frivolous spending because of the economy. So I cut myself off from all of it.
And losing weight is slow, so I am at a major disadvantage while waiting for it to get off.

It appears to have been a cutting my nose off to spite my face kind of thing.

I have a plan now and am putting it into action.

I am sure this is all common sense to others, but honestly, it is new to me. It seems to have been an instinctive thing to women of other generations.

I was raised to work like a man, deal with a man like a man (the comment about dealing with him like an attorney was so right on I was rolling laughing with tears coming down my face) and sacrifice anything to do with beauty first as it is no big deal.


Apparently I am a moron :)

I know from some of the comments that others think I was a fool to post here or to even simply throw it all away.

I think you are wrong. Thank God I asked here. Thank God the problem is me (or at least all I can do about it is deal with me) and that is a good thing.

Vox, thank you so much! I have a LOT to learn about men and women.

Thank you to everyone who gave me advice in the comments. I will be printing this post out and working hard towards its goals for the next three months. I will be reading every comment. I will let you know how it goes.

I know you don't like hugs but I am sending you a cyber one!

Thank you again from the bottom of my heart.

I love my Husband, I love my Family and I cherish being home with them. I just wanted to fix the problem. I was in a panic. Feeling and thinking the way I do is a hell all its own.

Now I can fix as much of it as I am responsible for. Any prayers are much, much appreciated.

WW

DW said...

Vox is a hero. Its good seeing another marriage saved, and another person seeing the light.

Mr. Nightstick said...

How does one lift weight five days a week? Or did I read that wrong.

Josh said...

" I have yet to see a marriage that isn't a women running her Husband nuts so I don't see many real life examples to follow."

This is very significant. You might try reaching out to couples in your church who have been married for thirty or forty years and asking them to mentor you.

And if your church doesn't have those sorts of couples, find a new church, preferably one that doesn't drive men away.

Anonymous said...

Hi Josh, good advice. My Husband isn't interested in going to church but I am praying we can meet some other Christians soon.

I also pray that one day we are the type of couple who can help encourage other Christians.

WW

Josh said...

what is it about church that he doesn't like?

Wendy said...

How does one lift weight five days a week? Or did I read that wrong.

Work certain parts of the body on different days of the week, giving one day off between workouts for the specific muscles worked. Maybe taking a day off completely once a week.

Aeoli Pera said...

Be careful with this one, Vox.

I think the picture is incomplete. My intellect is clashing with my intuition, and I suspect you feel the same thing.

Theoretically, this situation would be almost completely ideal if she didn't have her finger on the nuclear button.

-Per Heartiste, her husband causes relationship anxiety. Spin that hamster!
-She is obviously predisposed to femininity; her writing leaks estrogen.
-They are both filling traditional roles.

The only problem seems to be her physical fitness: information she didn't provide in the e-mail.

But something is setting off alarms in my head. Why does the marriage appear stable in theory and still feel so top-heavy?

The picture we have is almost certainly wrong.

Daniel said...

How does one lift weight five days a week? Or did I read that wrong.

Take Sunday and Wednesday off. But that's optional.

Well done, Vox.

Vox said...

It appears to have been a cutting my nose off to spite my face kind of thing.

Don't beat yourself up, just stop doing it. Nose-cutting appears to be a fairly instinctive approach for women and male gammas alike.

Apparently I am a moron :)

Not if you had the sense to perceive that you were going about things the wrong way, seek advice, and change course. That's actually what intelligent people do. There is no guarantee of success, of course, but at least one avoids the guarantee of failure provided by staying a course that wasn't working.

You simply bought into the propaganda you were fed, like most of us were at one time or another. Anyhow, let us know how things are going in a few months time.

How does one lift weight five days a week?

Actually, for a woman like her, I'd probably recommend lifting three days a week and cardio the other two days. But Spacebunny would know more about that than I would.

Stingray said...

WW,

Something else occurred to me. You mentioned in one of the comments that he is fried when he gets home and just wants to unwind. What this could possibly mean is that "charming" these women, as you put it, is exhausting to him and he doesn't actually enjoy doing this. Is he an introvert?

What this also means is that if he can't bring himself to charm you any more, you are not inspiring him to do it. When a man charms his wife, it is not typically exhausting. She brings it out of him. He enjoys doing this for her as it's fun and it brings the two of you closer together. It could be the lawyer speak that Vox mentioned. What I suspect is that it is a combination of several things, your weight (which you said you are addressing), the manner is which you address him and your overall general demeanor toward him.

Also, regarding the weight thing, you may want to look into low carb. In my experience, the weight comes off much faster that way (and yes, before we start a diet war, everyone is different. I know this. It is still worth a try if she wants things to possibly move faster). With the weight training it could make a significant difference much more quickly.

Stingray said...

As I am not sure Spacebunny posts here, if I may: A full body workout three days a week and adding cardio two to three days might be just the ticket. A good book that explains this very nicely is:

http://www.amazon.com/Sculpting-Her-Body-Perfect-3rd/dp/0736073884/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330013932&sr=8-1-spell

When I first began to weight train this is what I used and the speed of the results amazed me. And this is before I even went low carb. It is geared for women as well, which I liked.

Josh said...

wrt the weights and fat loss thing, focus on the big three compound lifts of squat, dead lift, and bench. sprinting or other high intensity intervals. supplement with low level cardio to increase fat burned. paleo or primal (marksdailyapple.com). you also might try an intermittent fasting regimen like leangains.com

Anonymous said...

I think this quote "Never forget that under the current legal regime, neither of you have any rights in a marriage except those that your mate freely chooses to grant you, and which can be withdrawn at any time." would make a great future post on how a man is supposed to lead/run his home with no real authority.

- A frustrated married chump

Stingray said...

FMC,

The authority comes from you and no where else. You have to make it so that she has so much more to lose than things like money and the house, namely you have to make it so that losing you is unthinkable. Married game.

Aeoli Pera said...

Hrm, I should have read Anonymous' response earlier than now. Her parents' marriage may be the landmine I'm looking for.

I still advise caution here.

Anonymous said...

"[...] would make a great future post on how a man is supposed to lead/run his home with no real authority."

I second something like this. Most of the general game talk isn't very useful for me in a married situation-- nor useful in dealing with other men of differing levels in the workplace when it does come time for confrontation or ethical differences.

modernguy said...

LOL@focus on weight lifting. Don't do that unless you want your ass to look even bigger, especially don't do heavy squats. Work your upper body with light weights and focus on cardio and diet. Diet is the most important.

rycamor said...

LOL@focus on weight lifting. Don't do that unless you want your ass to look even bigger, especially don't do heavy squats. Work your upper body with light weights and focus on cardio and diet. Diet is the most important.

OK... NOW modernguy has crossed the line.

Kiwi the Geek said...

This is very good advice. IF your husband is on the verge of cheating, your demands, however reasonable, will drive him away. You have to compete. Make your home a pleasant place to come home to. It's hard to be genuinely cheerful given your worries, but make a list of all you have to be thankful for, play some love songs, read Psalms and Philippians and trust God to change your attitude.

Unless you have the self-discipline of a Marine, I doubt you're going to go from never exercising to lifting weights regularly, and stick with it, especially with children. I would start by choosing a physical activity you like, and you can even include the children in that if possible. Once you've made the habit, and you're itching for that daily bike ride, it's easier to make improvements, but it's very difficult to make sudden changes stick. The fitness buffs here may disagree, but if you're more like me than like them, it's better to go for a walk every day than to join a gym and go twice a month.

Josh said...

" LOL@focus on weight lifting. Don't do that unless you want your ass to look even bigger, especially don't do heavy squats. Work your upper body with light weights and focus on cardio and diet. Diet is the most important."

http://nerdfitness.com/blog/2011/07/21/meet-staci-your-new-powerlifting-super-hero/

yeah, she has such a fat ass...

is there anything on which you're ever anything but consistently wrong?

Stickwick said...

LOL@focus on weight lifting. Don't do that unless you want your ass to look even bigger, especially don't do heavy squats. Work your upper body with light weights and focus on cardio and diet. Diet is the most important.

WW -- ignore this. The truth is, there is no better way to burn fat than to increase your muscle mass. My family owned a gym for years, and I know from hundreds of satisfied clients that the quickest way for women to slim down and tone up is to get them into serious weights. Personally, I was at my skinniest when I was a record-holding competitive powerlifter -- a trim size 6 with a tush so beautiful it could have been in the Louvre. You should absolutely learn to weight train.

Stingray said...

Personally, I was at my skinniest when I was a record-holding competitive powerlifter -- a trim size 6 with a tush so beautiful it could have been in the Louvre.

A dream of mine that will never be, go to the gym for one hour with Stickwick and Spacebunny.

R. Bradley Andrews said...

Good base post VD. Much better than the knee-jerk "she is wrong" I saw in the other thread. She may be wrong, but we all need a more balanced approach and not instantly blame anyone.

Sure, many of us need to change, but as VD noted, slapping people in the face with the need for that change won't normally produce it.

Stickwick said...

@Stingray: That would be fun. There aren't too many women who are into serious weights. Most of them think like moderndoofus, that they'll get big if they lift. If only they knew.

Josh said...

"A dream of mine that will never be, go to the gym for one hour with Stickwick and Spacebunny."

pretty sure that sounds like the beginning of a cinemax movie...

Stingray said...

Stickwick,

It really would be fun, only in reality, it would probably go something like this: 1) Meet at the gym, 2) take a few minutes to talk about technique and personal style to exchange ideas and pointers, 3) going our separate ways to actually work out as I have a feeling the three of us like to be left the hell alone while we lift. Talking is distracting.

Stingray said...

pretty sure that sounds like the beginning of a cinemax movie...

That's hysterical! Who's the pizza delivery guy?

Anonymous said...

"Stickwick said...
...
Personally, I was at my skinniest when I was a record-holding competitive powerlifter -- a trim size 6 with a tush so beautiful it could have been in the Louvre. You should absolutely learn to weight train.
February 23, 2012 10:23 AM"


I'm gonna remember this one.
Louvre tush.
Thank you for the mental image and the double entendre. I louvre you for it.

Athor Pel

Ghost said...

Jealousy is a cancer, and if you don't get rid of it, it will continue to grow until it kills your relationship. If he isn't cheating on you, treating him like he is is going to make it that much harder to resist the temptation (if I'm gonna do the time, I might as well enjoy the crime). Likewise, if he's not wanting to leave you, treating him like he will at any moment will make him feel like maybe you want him gone, but don't have the spine to end it yourself, and you need him to give you the excuse so you can tell all your friends about your asshole exhusband who was constantly cheating on you.

I see this a lot in women, and it is perplexing to say the least: you see someone competing for your man, and your first reaction is to make yourself as unattractive to the man as possible, to test his undying love, or whatever.

Also, you know how your husband never points out a guy and says, "that guy is such an asshole. All he does is buy women fur coats and listen to them talk about their feelings"? Well, that's the exact same reason you should stop saying things like, "that girl is such a whore," "that slut will screw anyone as long as he's married," or "my best friend, Michelle, ya know, the one with the boob job and the surgically restored hymen? She totally wants your balls on her chin."

You think you're saying the first two. We're only hearing that last one.

Anonymous said...

I second Josh's mention of the Primal Blueprint, it will change your life as well as your body.

JCclimber said...

WW,
a little something else. 1) I think you have an incorrect idea of what aloof alphas behave like at home. Your husband is behaving more like a bitter delta at home with you, some of the behaviors seem on the surface like alpha. However, your reaction to his behaviors show that your intuition knows he is not really alpha with you.

2) I told my wife that when I came home, I'd like to hear her say "Welcome home, we're glad you came home". She said "Even if I'm being sarcastic?" My replay: Yes. Even if it is said sarcastically, and you follow it by saying "and I'm just saying that because you asked me to do it".

Guess what? Two weeks of her doing that, and me complete ignoring the sarcasm, or usually, laughing at it and saying "Keep it up, I like hearing it even though it is sarcastic"......and by the 3rd week she was saying it from the heart. And I'm coming home earlier from work.

Now, we'd already established my alpha bonafides in our family, but I noticed I wasn't always eager to come home, so this was my solution. Alpha doesn't mean perfect, nor does it mean I can't learn and try new things to maintain our marriage in good standing.

As Dr Laura sometimes told her female callers: Behave like it's true, and soon it will become true.

He doesn't like coming home to you. Yet, he is still attracted to your relationship.

JCclimber said...

WW,
being overweight is, of course, a serious issue in attraction to your husband.

But your own history shows that this started before the weight gain. Therefore, we can conclude that you can change things WHILE losing the weight, as it is most likely your behavior that makes him not eager to come home.

I mean, you're laying him consistently. He isn't being deprived sexually. It. Is. Your. Attitude.

Perhaps as a result of your previous separation and the things that caused that, you are showing through your language and body language that you are still on the brink of separating again.

That is an ugly thing to hold over someone's head all the time.

Josh said...

" That's hysterical! Who's the pizza delivery guy?"

modernguy

JCclimber said...

Two other points:
WW, read the dark triad posts and behaviors. If your husband was actually an aloof alpha, that is more like what his behaviors would be.

And be extremely careful about looking to the church for examples of marriage. There is only one type of church marriage which is worth emulating (human being marriage, not Jesus and the bride). That is:

A married couple where the wife has a more traditional old school role without being a "headcovering, quiet" doormat. And the husband is not an overbearing freak most likely cheating on the side. Instead, they are fairly open that their marriage requires hard work, they've made mistakes, and obviously respect each other. Not love. Respect.

By respect, I don't mean he won't ever be in the same room alone with another woman, never flirts, etc. That is your interpretation. I mean that he spends more time with her than any one other person. Not that he is constantly at her side. Comes by her side occasionally to flirt with her or pay her attention, even if just for a minute.

And she respects him by looking at him, touching him sometimes, and her body language is subtly subservient to him. And DOESN"T ever go into a room alone with another man, etc...

See it is a different standard. Because women and men are different. Fair? Yes. Almost completely opposite of the poisonous belief system of our feminist culture? Yes.

Markku said...

Josh:
modernguy

I see, you're into femdom, eh?

Stingray said...

Josh,

I think we'd break him.

Anonymous said...

Very good points.

On the weight front-Fat is in my genetics and I have to battle it with low carb/paleo which I started easing into about a month ago. I am more aggressive now and seeing more results. It will have to be a lifetime. I am glad that you guys brought up the weight lifting thing. I have had success in the past with treadmill/bike combos. I LOVE to weight lift and grew up doing it with my body builder Father. I was told I should work on getting fat off first then sculpt but I think I may rework things. I would certainly prefer that as I really enjoy weight lifting.

You guys just confirmed for me what I was looking into.

Second, I think you all have good points. He screwed up when we were young (no evidence of physical and swears it wasn't, but they were way too close and she wanted way more and he enjoyed that). It is hard for me to let that go.

I am hyper-vigalent regarding this behavior because I grew up with it and then experienced it. Yeah, I would rather walk away then feel that pain. Something deep tells me to believe him that is was just stupid and he never touched her. He has never messed up near that again.

I guess I have looked toward some fundamentalist values and wanted him to apply them to himself. He really isn't interested and perhapse I am taking that as a sign that he is not interested in being above reproach for me when I think he should be because of the past.

Food for thought.

WW

Anonymous said...

Thank you Vox for your comment. Especially about smart people seeing a problem and looking for the answer and to change the situation.

I was humilated because I had the problem.

Again, something to rework my mind around.

I hate to have to raise myself here, I find I am much stupider and much less skilled then I thought I was.

This is all necessary so that I can teach my little ones.

That will be worth it.

WW

Anonymous said...

As to the home environment...

I take care of nearly everything with the home and children (unless it is something he specifically wants to do) and he only has to work and then come home. I mean there is the work around the home that he likes to do, but you get my point.

Yes, he is fried when he gets home. His job is very hard and his ass is on the line in some serious, serious ways. Then on top of it is the normal office politics. I understand that.

I think my failings is that we are far removed from family (some on purpose) and in a new area where friends are slowly being made. He is all I have to talk to (I know, poor guy).

So I wait all day to talk to an adult and he waits all day for peace. Not a good combination. Then with these other people calling all the time (lots of his female family members, and some of the males even older then him, call him non-stop for advice)from work. I basically have to get in line and I got a problem with that.

We will have to address that. It exacerbates things severely.

WW

Josh said...

"I see, you're into femdom, eh?"

I was going to originally write nate, but then I realized that no one likes midget porn...

Anonymous said...

I really appreciate some of the ladies offering ideas about books and exercises. Thank you. You do not get this advice if you ask other women in person. They tell me he should love me for me LOL.

Yeah, ok.

Last, regarding some other comments.

Look, I am aware that my past and our past makes me perceive things in a biased way. I was upset, I agreed I may be seeing things wrong. I wasn't looking for an out, I was praying that it was me. I want an end to this cycle. But reading some blogs make you cynical that anyone is faithful. Knowing that I am still cubby, I knew that the knee jerk reaction was that I am horrible and he has a right to cheat.

That isn't how I wanted to ask things.

This is why I asked Vox.

It is easy to pile on someone and point out their faults.

This whole thing, while educational, is very painful as I am very, very private and have not spoken to anyone in my real life about this.

Maybe this will help someone else as well.

I don't apologize for it. I asked Vox because a lot of his advice that he gives men were behaviors my Husband was doing to me (probably to calm my butt down)and I thought he was mean.

It was eye opening to understand all that I do right now. Especially after the comments.

I thank you all again.

WW

Anonymous said...

Josh,

He just doesn't like the experiences he has had at other churches. I could go into detail but I am sure you can imagine that feminine men and militant women are not something my Husband is into. Plus, well, frankly it is unnerving to have your Husband hit on by "women of God".

He just won't go until he wants to. He has no problem with me instructing our children on the Bible and holding them to those standards. He is a little bit more liberal with himself LOL. I have yet to see him read the book. I am praying for him.

Not a battle I am willing to fight right now.

WW

JCclimber said...

WW,
for the advice thing on the phone. Later, after you have some credibility, see if you can agree to a time period when he is best able to defer answering the phone, and when he can set aside some time.

Be asked for advice, that you can provide, is very rewarding to almost every man. If you try to cut this off, maybe you should try just eating oatmeal without salt, sugar, fat, or milk for every meal for a few days. Being asked for advice is probably one of the few mental rewards he gets for his hard work.

He's not "stealing time from you". Instead, he's getting the mental payoff that his talents, and not just his $$$, are needed and appreciated.

One of the most flattering things my wife does for me is referring HER friends to me for advice. If they call when I'm talking with her or my child - "I'm talking with my wife right now, is 8:15 a good time to call you back?".

Also, as many have noted, the most overweight women at the gym are all doing the same activities. Cardio while completely ignoring the weights. The hot, fit women are in the weight room. Copy the successes, not the failures.

Anonymous said...

Stickwick, I don't know if you are reading still, but if you are...would you recommend high weight low rep or low weight/high reps to burn the most fat?

I actually do bulk up quickly (I have a very curvy hour glass shape, even a bit chubby) and cannot even train my calves because of it.

Thanks,

WW

Anonymous said...

JCclimber,

Good points. He does seem to love it but, eventually, there has to be a time when I have him and the children too. And I don't mean when he is too exhausted to do anything but watch tv. Calling back is a good idea.

Also on the weights, we just got a bunch. I am excited to start! Thanks for the encouragment. Good point about following success.

WW

Stingray said...

he only has to work and then come home.

A good place to start is right here, WW. Only has to go to work. I wonder if you fully realize what that means? I'm not criticizing as I used to feel the same, "only" work. I do pretty much everything in my home and am in the same boat with no family around and I have no friends close by either. It works for me as I'm introverted, maybe it doesn't work so well for you. Understandable. But one of the things I would get your mind working around is that "only" work is probably a lot more daunting than you realize. Changing the way you phrase things and think about these things will go a long way in how you look at him as well. I sense a lack of respect there due to your past experiences and changing that, I think, will go a long way in fixing this.. Do what you can to find other adult conversation where you can. If you give him the break he so wants, you will very likely find that in a few days he will be seeking you out for conversation.

JCclimber said...

WW, your husband is supposed to be the high priest of the household. Don't tell him that. Ever.

Instead, start asking him, little by little, to do some of the high priest things.

Pick an important theological topic. Tell him you're having some trouble understanding it. Ask him, since you know he can quickly grasp difficult concepts, if he can help you "get it". Reward him by mentioning later that you told a church friend about how your husband explained a difficult concept to you. He'll want to do it again. Provide him another opportunity in a couple weeks.

Anonymous said...

Stingray,

I didn't mean it that way. I meant I do not expect him to handle my work on top of his work but I can see how it can be perceived that way. Thanks for pointing it out. I said that to him when he called me spoiled and now wonder if he took it the way you did. Good point.

WW

Anonymous said...

JCclimber,

Ok, the approach I am taking is all wrong. Thanks for the guidence.

It seems he doesn't want to talk about anything. I try to throw anything out there.

Again, I have to change my mind here. Much of what I see as being honest and not being manipulative is lacking the skill of handling a man with art.

There has got to be a book on it somewhere right? I know Dr. Laura, but I mean, one with some artful instructions.

WW

Stingray said...

Regarding talking to a man: every. word. counts. When you are going to approach him about something important you need to think about how you are going to phrase it first. 99.9% of the time you need to ask. It's more feminine and far less off putting. It doesn't mean you are being subservient or docile. You are showing him deference. No matter what other women tell you, this is not a bad thing! Second, pay attention to how he reacts. Watch his face and his body while you ask. If you phrased it poorly, it will show. Go over in your mind how you phrased it and what tone you used. Next time phrase it differently. Use a different tone. This takes time, but you will get good at it. Also pay very close attention to when he reacts positively. Remember how you phrased things and the tone you used. Try to use them again the next time.

This does not mean that you can't play around with your husband or tease. I am a horrible tease and mess with my husband all the time. HE LOVES IT. Part of what you may need to figure out is when to defer to him and when you are just playing around.

All of this takes time and practice, but it is utterly worth it. The more we show appreciation to our men, the more they are inspired to appreciate us.

Stickwick said...

" That's hysterical! Who's the pizza delivery guy?"

modernguy


Stingray's right. We'd probably make him cry.

At least nobody offered Karl Hungus. "Here ist deine pizza. Ja, I'm delivery expert."

Giraffe said...

Stingray's right. We'd probably make him cry.

I think he's rubbed himself raw over the idea by now.

Aeoli Pera said...

Anonymous,

I obviously owe you an apology. It was not my intention to hurt you, but in retrospect my comments were flagrantly disrespectful and indiscreet.

I'm very sorry and if I can make it up to you, I will.

Please forgive me for my indiscretion, as I'm still much more comfortable working with ideas than with people. It's a character flaw and I'm working on it.

Stickwick said...

Stickwick, I don't know if you are reading still, but if you are...would you recommend high weight low rep or low weight/high reps to burn the most fat?

The principle is, the more muscle you have, the faster you'll burn fat. Also, any type of exercise that's anaerobic (e.g. powerlifting, sprinting) tends to burn fat the fastest.

I recommend starting off with 8-10 reps + lower weight and gradually working toward 5-6 reps + higher weight. Keep the lifts basic and USE PROPER FORM. If you're new to lifting, get some instruction. Good form is extremely important. There's no need to do a lot of specialized lifts, unless you want to target a specific area.

I've had some medical problems recently, and have not lifted for the last few months. I'm kind of in the same boat as you, since I'm starting over with the higher reps/lower weight routine. Here's my routine, which should work well for you:

Day 1
Overhead press
Pulldowns
Deadlift

Day 2
Cardio x 2

Day 3
Bench press
Seated row

Day 4
Rest

Day 5
Cardio x 2

Day 6
Squats

Day 7
Rest

Depending on how I feel, I often do cardio on my lifting days, too. On my cardio-only days, I burn a minimum of 800-900 calories. A really good way to do that is to use an elliptical machine, which burns more calories for a smaller perceived effort compared to a treadmill.

You will gain some muscle initially, so do NOT worry about what the scale says for the first month or so. You will max out on muscle building relatively soon, but the toning and fat-burning will continue. I strongly urge you to take your measurements every month using a tape measure and look at that more than you do the scale, especially for the first couple of months.

If you're worried about some parts of your body getting too bulky, you can modify the routine to de-emphasize it. My quads tend to get big with little effort, so I don't do super-high-weight squats anymore.

Lastly, paleo is an excellent diet choice. I'm on it for life.

Good luck, woman!

Stickwick said...

Giraffe: GROSS.

Ghost said...

WW,

You've struggled with weight your whole life, then you were likely struggling when you got married. Chances are, he knew that, and still loves you regardless. And, assuming you didn't "trap" him into a marriage, then he chose to be with you willingly. It would do you well to remember things like that when irrational thoughts pop into your head.

My advice is, when jealousy creeps in, put on your sexiest lingerie and rock his world. Make it so he doesn't feel the need to look elsewhere.

As for being at ease with him working with women, you have two choices: go back to work in the same office so you can constantly be on him, watching his every move; or you can build a time machine and go back to when women weren't allowed to work. Women work everywhere. And you can't expect your man to be successful in business if he's forced to hide in the men's room for fear of making eye contact with the wrong woman and starting your jealousy engine back up. He's going to have to interact with humanity, and there's a 50/50 chance that who he deals with will have a vagina. You're going to have to learn to live with it.

Lastly, any man worth his salt knows that 95% of women are crazier than the one they're with now. I don't make the rules, I'm just pointing it out. We're more likely to notice that crazy aspect if we aren't seeing it at home. When I was married to a crazy woman, every other woman I met seemed like a better match. I'm married to a sane woman now, and every other chick out there seems absolutely nuts. You can't treat him like he's cheating because of a phone message from a girl, unless that message says, "hey, it's so much fun having sex with you behind your wife's back! Call me!" it wasn't that, so stop worrying.

Okay, seriously lastly, I'm gonna fill you in on a secret: every other woman on the planet wants to see you fail. It's not their fault, it's just a survival instinct. Therefore, if you're constantly on him, "who's this bitch calling you? 'Hey, it's me,' like you fuckin know her like that. Who the hell does this whore think she is, and why are you even talking to that slut? Especially after that last girl you did nothing with but who really wanted you? I can't believe you would do this to me!!" then I can promise you that every time he goes into work, that whore is rubbing his shoulders or getting his coffee and, without ever saying a word conveying that "I would never treat you this way" attitude that he'll see right away. Because he won't be seeing it from you. You can't control how he acts any more than he can control how women who AREN'T his wife act, or when they call, or how they leave messages.

Please understand that I'm making broad assumptions, and not in any way saying that you do the bad things I've listed here.

Anonymous said...

This post and conversation has been very helpful to me. My situation is similar to WW's although my husband has not done anything inappropriate in the past. I've basically gotten my weight problem under control, and my husband has been more attentive. I resent his past treatment of me but hopefully I'll manage to get over it.

Stingray said...

Giraffe,

WTH, man? What did we ever do to you? : )

Anonymous said...

If a woman wants a marriage or LTR with an attractive man, then feeling occasional jealousy and insecurity is part of the price she will have to pay for it.

It's not right or wrong, fair or unfair, it just is.

IndyGuy77 said...

Blowjobs. They're a must.

Josh: "I was going to originally write nate, but then I realized that no one likes midget porn..."

I almost spit beer all over, dude.

You rock.

Zeke said...

I'd like to hear you expand upon your second basic principle:

2) A man does not answer to his wife. A wife does answer to her husband. This is both Biblical principle and a fundamental reality of Game. A man cannot be simultaneously a) responsible for a woman and b) answer to her.

Maybe that's true and maybe it isn't, but I bet you've got plenty more you could say about that.

Anonymous said...

Vox, I can't thank you enough for your thoughtful reply to this email. You have given me much insight into how I can better treat my husband. Sometimes it is great to hear a guy's perspective, especially when it is eloquently and logically presented.

~B

Kiwi the Geek said...

WW, another good book is Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerichs. That helped me with communication and tone. There are some others that came after too - anything by that author would be good.

Kiwi the Geek said...

Oh, I forgot...

I am praying for him. Not a battle I am willing to fight right now.

Not a battle you should fight, ever. 1 Peter (I think) says win him over by a gentle and quiet spirit. So pray, show him respect and deference, and wait for God to work in him.

Anonymous said...

Going off topic here VD but I think you will find the question worth considering.

Today Yohami and Rollo both posted on the value of looks to a guys game. Rollo seemed to value looks (physical appearance + phsyique) more highly than Yohami, who looked at it from a total package kind of view.

What do you think the correlation is between a man's physical appearance and his status on the socio-sexual hierarchy? Is being good looking alpha? Does being physically attractive automatically raise a man's rank?

The LP 999/Linda said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
R. Bradley Andrews said...

Love and Respect is a very good book.

Hard to get women to really understand the respect part though, unfortunately.

SarahsDaughter said...

"WW, another good book is Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerichs." - Kiwi the Geek

I'm interested to know what the Ilk's take is on this book.

I've read "The Power of a Praying Wife" that Nate suggested, while it was impactful, it didn't create the fundamental change within me that "Love and Respect" did.
Perhaps it was due to time and place, but "Love and Respect" helped me commit to a relationship with God that I've never had. I "Got it" with that book. My husband's thoughts and actions have nothing to do with my respect for him. The respect I show him has only to do with God's command. It isn't something withheld until earned, it is something given if God's commands are obeyed. Changed everything in our marriage.

Shutterbugt said...

WW,
The advice here is excellent. Kudos to the Ilk! I read your comments about seeing bad things in family marriages and having no good-marriage role models and relate completely. I did EXACTLY the same thing when I got married. Its been a long road to change dysfunctional family patterns, but I've been married 22 years next month and my husband and I are going strong.

It's been frustrating as knowing what NOT to do in a relationship is not the same thing as knowing what TO do. I knew I didn't want to mess up my marriage in the same way my parents did theirs, but I had no resources to draw from to make the necessary changes. I had a big problem with anxiety as well. And abusive father and never-happy feminist mother was a nasty witches brew for trouble in my marriage. I became a Christian and wanted my husband to lead because I knew it was right, but when he did lead I panicked because in my messed up mind he was trying to control me. In fact, I had to end my relationship with my mother because she would be in the background telling me my husband was trying to control me, that he was an asshole and I could do better.

One of the best things I ever did (and God had a hand in working this out) is I found a wonderful Christian counselor who was committed to working to save marriages. She was an older woman and was exactly what I needed in a "mother figure" to help me turn around my thinking. Should you decide to get Christian counseling, I cannot emphasize enough the importance of finding a counselor who truly believes the Word of God and is committed to giving people the skills they need to make marriages work. That kind of counselor is not easy to find. I had several tell me that I needed help leaving my husband before I found this one who was committed to helping me stay and make it work.

I hope what I've written here helps. I won't be back until late this afternoon and I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have or share more experiences if you like.

Giraffe said...

I'm interested to know what the Ilk's take is on this book.

I haven't read the book. I saw part of the video series related to the book. It looked pretty good, but I didn't get to see the rest of it.

Anonymous said...

Aeoli,
That was very kind of you. It is hard online to determine people's motives and I understand that I came of like an idiot. I do that when panicked. That was class of you to apologize.

Stickwick, I am printing that out and doing it. Thank you and thank you for the encouragement.

Ghost, you are right! Great points, thank you for them.

Kiwi, thank you for your comment. I have a Christian friend who is the wife of a Pastor kind of breathing down my neck about how I am "sinning" by not going to a church. She thinks my standards are too high and that I should go without my Husband. She doesn't understand, she is not married to a man like my Husband. You just confirmed something for me. Thanks.

IndyGuy, I agree and while this has never been something I have shyed away from I will look to improve that area. I am just not sure how to do that. I guess youtube? Good grief. How does a Christian women who doesn't want to watch gay or straight porn get some fresh ideas for BJs?

R. Bradley and Sarah's Daughter that book is on my list to pick up this week. Dr Laura tells you what not to do, but I am not sure what to do...and it is hard to do what it seems like I have to do because it comes off in my head like it is demeaning (and I am attempting to rid myself of the feminazi poison but the more I defeat the more comes up..but I am doing it.).

Shutterbug, EXACTLY! I know what is wrong, but I have no idea what to do. Kind of like I killed a deer and want to eat but have no idea how to butcher it. LOL. You have been kind, glad to know I am not alone.

Thank you again to everyone, especially Vox, Nate, Markku and Rycamore (the last three who basically gave me therapy late at night).

I am overwhelmed and humbled that strangers, though many of you are Brothers and Sisters in Christ, would be willing to help me.

Thank you again.

I have put my plan in motion (based on Vox's plan) and have already made some wonderful headway.

I will update you in three months.

I think this will change not only my marriage but my children's future and for that I am forever grateful.

WW

Markku said...

I was deliberately harsh. Women usually don't make lasting changes unless they really feel the weight of how badly in the wrong direction they are going, although they might agree in principle.

As for where you are now, I'm quite optimistic.

Markku said...

But I still must remind that objectively it is as likely today as it was yesterday, that your husband is, in fact, cheating. The probability is low, but it is there. So, keep your eyes open. Just don't contribute to the problem yourself.

Markku said...

If the husband were here, we'd tell him that when the woman moves over from slightly concerned to completely neurotic, then your game is in serious imbalance and there is imminent danger. It should be balanced, not by caving to unreasonable demands, but by giving more attention.

Kiwi the Geek said...

WW, I'm so glad I was able to encourage you! The Bible says "don't forsake the assembling of believers". If you participate in a Bible study, meet with a prayer partner, or worship with a dozen friends and a guitar, that's assembling with believers. But there's nothing inherently wrong with going to church alone. Until your husband starts leading spiritually, meet God in whatever way works for you.

On the question of sex advice, try http://site.themarriagebed.com. It has lots of advice without being gratuitous. I have no idea how alpha/beta it is, because I haven't read there in a long time.

I'll be praying for you!

modernguy said...

What is this gay shit. You guys are too used to blowing each other on Vox's other forum. Get back to that, markku, josh and whoever else.

Anyway the point is: if you've got a fat ass, don't squat, it's going to make it bigger. Sure, looking like a fitness model would be great, but you should get down to a better weight first (a la that nerd girl-she got thin first). And you should think about where your body tends to store fat. If it's predominately on your ass and thighs doing squats is going to be counterproductive..

SarahsDaughter said...

"...and it is hard to do what it seems like I have to do because it comes off in my head like it is demeaning (and I am attempting to rid myself of the feminazi poison but the more I defeat the more comes up..but I am doing it.)." -WW

You're moving in the right direction. What could possibly be demeaning when it is in line with God's command? I know what you're saying, it is definitely something I had to overcome as well. But submitting to Truth will help you. Are God's commands demeaning? Are they anti-woman? Misogynist? Or are they perfectly in line with how our Father knows us, knows our husbands, and knows our relationship and what WILL work for the good of those that love Him?


"How does a Christian women who doesn't want to watch gay or straight porn get some fresh ideas for BJs?" - WW

You ask him, while in the process, what he wants. He'll tell you.


"But there's nothing inherently wrong with going to church alone. Until your husband starts leading spiritually, meet God in whatever way works for you." - Kiwi the Geek

I completely disagree with this.

The issues WW and her husband are going through may very well be her husband leading spiritually. He is, whether he knows it or not, leading her to a deeper relationship with God. This will be made right by her continued relationship with God and submission to his commands. This can be done with her, alone, with her Bible, and with God. To go on to church without her husband with the premise of "until he leads spiritually," she'll submit to another man (pastor) and his teachings. In my experience, this does nothing for marriages. I have witnessed far too many self righteous church going wives "out Christianing" their husbands. If you think feminism is disgusting, this is atrocious.

From personal experience, there is nothing more pleasant than submitting to God's command, being patient, trusting in Him, and then watching as your husband leads - not from guilt or obligation, but from God's guidance. There is something very sexy about the man that proclaims, "we're going to go to church today." And something so wonderful knowing I (his wife) had nothing to do with it. It is also wonderful when your husband comes to realize the church you've been attending is "off" and ceases attendance, knowing that he'd rather lead his family in his own home than have them led astray by a misguided church/pastor.

modernguy said...

"

If the husband were here, we'd tell him that when the woman moves over from slightly concerned to completely neurotic, then your game is in serious imbalance and there is imminent danger. It should be balanced, not by caving to unreasonable demands, but by giving more attention."

Thanks dumbass, after a week of arguing and babbling your gears are starting to turn. This is what I've been saying all along.

modernguy said...

Also paleo is unnecessary nonsense. It will be much more expensive and more time consuming to prepare. Not to mention you won't be able to shit except twice a week. Carbs are fine, just stick to whole grains - brown rice and oatmeal are good.

Kiwi the Geek said...

Sarah's daughter, it sounds as if you're assuming that a woman going to church without her husband is necessarily self-righteous about it. I didn't mean that-- I did mention a "gentle and quiet spirit". If it's wrong for a woman to go to church alone, then is it also wrong to do any of the other things I suggested? Or to teach the children, as she mentioned he allows her to do? If she shouldn't go to church without her husband taking her there, why is it okay to open the Bible at all without his leadership? I really don't understand your reasoning here. And unless it was in the other thread, I don't think her husband has "commanded" her not to go to church-- if he wanted to have family time on Sunday mornings, I would recommend meeting other believers at a different time. If he was going to a church, I would recommend going with him, regardless of the church. But if he doesn't care, I don't see why it's necessarily disrespectful to go to church alone, humbly.

SarahsDaughter said...

Kiwi the Geek, I know you mentioned a quiet, gentle spirit. Read through the other thread. She has clearly displayed that she does not have a quiet, gentle spirit. Her hamster has been racing, her emotions are all over the place and she has intense fear. There is a process of surrender to God that needs to occur for her before a quiet, gentle spirit will be experienced. She is extremely vulnerable right now. And, it can not be determined that she would choose a church that would encourage her on the principles of marriage that she needs to embrace. There is no shortage of churches that deliver a very feminist message of rights and entitlements and void of responsibilities in marriage.

There is a huge difference between reading the Bible and attending a church alone. There is a huge difference between hitting your knees and surrendering to God, praying for change, and attending a church that may or may not deliver a message of "requirements of Godly men" (adding fuel to her fire).

This may only be my experience, but if her husband has given her the okay to attend a church on her own without him, he has left the relationship and his involvement in her life long ago. If this is the case, it is still important, in my opinion, for her to not submit to any other man's teaching but immerse herself into her own relationship with God and submission to His commands. It may seem a very lonely place to be but that loneliness is far better than an environment of sympathizers to her plight. She has been wrong. Other Christians that believe she isn't responsible can not help her now. You may know of groups of believers that will give advice such as has been given on this blog, I have never witnessed it.

Markku said...

Thanks dumbass, after a week of arguing and babbling your gears are starting to turn. This is what I've been saying all along.

No, you suggested that he should indeed cave in to those demands. Causing her to see that her demands were ridiculous, and to stop making them, took all that work.

Wendy said...

Oi, ignore modernguy. Work all muscles as necessary to keep everything in balance. If you tend to be pear shaped, maybe don't work the legs as much. You're not going to get a fat butt from a few squats.

Again, ignore the scale, use measurements and fit of your clothes as a guide on how you're doing.

Shutterbug said...

WW, please remember that the changes you are making involve a process. Old habits take time, patience, prayer and tenacity to conquer, but together you and the Lord CAN do it. You'll fall, mess up and be sorely tempted to beat yourself up and throw in the towel. Don't. The Lord will help you up, dust you off, and walk with you through this process. Here, you have at your disposal a wonderful, rare, amazing resource - experienced, Christian men and women willing to help a sister save her marriage and make her home a better, healthier place for her family. Its easy to destroy, it's hard to construct. Do the hard thing. You'll gain self-respect and your marriage will be stronger, and that quiet, gentle spirit will come. I'll be praying for you.

Shutterbug said...

Oh,WW, if I may add, this verse from Timothy really helped me: "For I have not given you a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind."

Kiwi the Geek said...

Thanks SD, that makes more sense. In that context, the other examples I gave of meeting with believers could be just as problematic.

You reminded me of something else I was going to say to WW -- avoid anybody who encourages you to feel slighted or dissatisfied, to have a selfish attitude, to worry about cheating and jump to conclusions, to even think the word divorce. Avoid any woman who complains about her husband or shows disrespect in any way. Seek out people in your area who will encourage your marriage and advise you in the way we have.

SD, your comment also reminded me how blessed I am to have a relatively good church and circle of friends. People have respected, if not encouraged, my ironclad commitment, and that has made an uphill battle a little less steep.

modernguy said...

"You're not going to get a fat butt from a few squats."

You don't need to do squats unless you want to build up your quads. Jogging or cycling will give you all the muscle you need on your legs, especially if, like most women, you tend to store fat there.

"No, you suggested that he should indeed cave in to those demands. Causing her to see that her demands were ridiculous, and to stop making them, took all that work."

I can see how you might describe keeping a firmer boundary between work and home, even just on facebook, as "caving" if you're a limp-wristed little coward who succumbs to social pressure even when it's intruding on his family life. Hell, even your leather daddy Vox agreed with maintaining a firmer boundary.

Markku said...

I can see how you might describe keeping a firmer boundary between work and home, even just on facebook, as "caving" if you're a limp-wristed little coward who succumbs to social pressure even when it's intruding on his family life

There is no objective reason for why friending coworkers at Facebook intrudes in family life. It depends on how private person you happen to be. Of course, the next question is why you'd have Facebook account at all. I don't.

If it were a polite request, then it could have been considered.

Anonymous said...

ModernGuy,
I appreciate the one thing that you are saying, that you do understand that I think my Husband should have boundaries and shouldn't care about what others think. I think Christian men should. My Husban while believing in God is not there now and I cannot expect him to behave the way perhapse a Preacher acts. Even if that would be great for me :)

In his defense, he has done this with allowing me to stay at home. We received quite a backlash about that. He was against it for years. Once he was on board, he was onboard and didn't give a crap what anyone thought.

He is much more sensitive to social things then I am. I do not give a round crap about what most people think. He does. He uses that in his life. I burn bridges, he charms people into building one to him and even asking him how he would like them to build it and then graciously receiving a beer when they thank him for the opportunity.

Someone asked if he was an introvert. Yes, but excells in dealing with people and then is exhausted from it. I am slightly introverted, but need some form of social contact. So that is the problem there. Working on it. He has no problem with me meeting with some new friends and I am going to find a women's Bible study (hopefully) and talk myself silly about stuff there. Nothing private, just homemaking stuff.

WW

Anonymous said...

As for fitness and health advice, ah Modern Guy, it won't work for me and I know this from experience. I grew up with a body builder for a Father and was working out with him from childhood. Squats were something he MADE me do because of our genetic tendencies. I was listening to people who don't know what they were talking about and should have stuck with what I know. Being out of shape needs to be ONE part of me. However because it is something everyone can see, I was getting embaressed and forgetting it is only ONE thing about me and I can use my strengths to deal with it.

Markku, I understand your tone and appreciate it. I don't reason with children about to try to burn themselves, I get them away from the fire. Thank you.

Thank you ladies for the info regarding ah,....bj technique. I am quite good at it, I just thought there might be some new stuff that I wouldn't know about. Of course, I don't want to have to gouge out my eyes, kwim?

Regarding going to Church. I agree that in a normal Christian home the Father is the spirtual leader and should lead in this area. And my Husband does, but does it by assuming I will do it. He did not grow up in my faith, he is not interested in reading the Bible on his own and the few times we have gone to various churchs (I begged him to go) were disasters. He prays for me and the children, I KNOW he talks to God and there is frankly nothing I can do to budge him on it.

Other people do not understand because they cannot fathom the type of man he is. For instance, when we began dating we fell in love very quickly. He told me "do NOT ask me to marry you." He meant it. Knowing him now, he was worried he would want to ask me, I would jump the gun and do it and he would be forced to refuse and refuse to ask me for a long time to prove to me that that was not my place.

I know that won't make sense to women who are not married to guys like this. I quite literally have to be careful, if I said "hey, don't go that way, it is dangerous" when he was younger he would have done it to prove me wrong and/or prove to me not to tell him what to do.

If I go to church without him, even if he WANTS to go, he will NEVER go to that church. I am stuck. I KNOW it. And it is going to have to be God and not me who moves him. I appreciate that about him because in the past when I was panicking and almost screwed up a business deal, he was cool calm and collected and could not be moved because he trusted the Lord.

WW

Anonymous said...

I think the commenter had it right. I am not meek and quiet. I have to stay in this lonely place. It is very, very, very hard, but something horribly important is riding on this.

Thank you for the encouragement that it will be a long, discouraging process. Sigh, that is discouraging before I even start LOL. But hey, it is my path and I am going to do it with a vengence.

As for friends, I have been friendless for several years because I refuse to be friends with women acting like idiots. I met with one yesterday who seems to have the same weightloss goals and standards for her marriage and children though she is not a Christian. I nearly cried in relief.

I am trying to get to the point mentally and emotionally where I understand
1. This must be dealt with now and to the point that I am rooted in it so that this destructive cycle does not continue and

2. That I am not overcome with sorrow and discouragement when I look around and see others excelling in the areas that I fail in and have been damaged in by my upbringing. I get overwhelmed by not being perfect alot LOL.

Thank you again to everyone. I am so grateful for all of this. Thank you all and God Bless you. Ladies, you especially I wish that I knew in real life. What a lot of years I could have saved had I seen one of you in real life. Thank you for understanding that I cannot do the normal Christian thing.

We are around much false teaching and one misstep on a bad day and I could fall easily into because I am desperate from loneliness.

Thank you again. And thank you Vox for allowing me to gain all this on your blog.

WW

Anonymous said...

Most valueable pieces of advice so far to get me going is
"Rise to the level of your competition"

And it is my attitude that is the problem!

In case anyone else is struggling and this would help them.

Instead of getting depressed about women I easily surpass in looks when I am in shape, I am going to go ahead and get my fine self back to being my fine self. What a waste to waste that.

And, because it is a process, having a sweet attitude (which is a massive struggle for me ESPECIALLY when I feel I am being wronged) changes everything.

By far the best thing was the kindness of you all. I am grateful in a way I cannot express. Thank you.

WW

Anonymous said...

Markku,

It was bad timing (right after the phone incident) so I took it as a slap in the face. That was mostly what it was.

Again, the "request" (if you could call it that) was made by an enraged, panicked (there have been at least FIVE divorces at his workplace based on facebook behavior in the last few years) women with everything to lose.

It is frustrating when you see what you consider "signals" of cheating and what your spouse would tell someone else are signals of cheating, yet said spouse declares he is innocent and you have to trust him anyway.

So yeah, this has all been fun LOL.

WW

Stingray said...

WW,

As things improve, I do not think you will feel so lonely. As your mind begins to calm the loneliness will begin to dissipate along with the anxiety. I will tell you one thing that I discovered (it's quite embarrassing but if it will help you then . . . ) that help me immensely. Bare with me as this is a bit difficult to explain.

When we first married and my husband and I would fight, I was always . . . always in the wrong. I didn't always think I was, but as I went over things, I realized I was. This was a tremendous shock to me as women are always portrayed as being in the right. How could I always be so horribly wrong? So I strove to improve, but I also strove to be RIGHT in an argument because, dammit, I needed to be right. As time went on, for a couple of arguments, I WAS right. However, I couldn't argue myself out of a paper bag. So, in essence, I was still wrong. Boy did this rankle. I strove to improve my ability to argue because I would be right one of these days and I would prove this to my husband!!! I would actually wait for arguments, just in the hopes that I could prove myself right, for once (I was never stupid enough to start them, thank God).

Then, one day, I don't know why this finally dawned, but it did, I realized "Why do I have to be right? Why do I so desperately need to have this power of being correct and him being wrong over my husband? What the hell is wrong with me"? I let it go, all of it. I decided that if he did something wrong, figure out why. There is usually not even a reason to bring it up if 1) I can fix it or 2) it's not really hurting anything. Just take care of it or let it go and move on. I realized that most of the time we fought, it was over nothing and if I had just realized that he was is a bad mood and took it, the whole thing would be over and all would be well. (Meaning after a bad day at work, he might snap at something irrelevant. There is no need for me to say anything at all about this, because he's not mad at me at all, he is mad at the day. I don't mention it and I move on like nothing happened. IF I say anything it will usually be to go sit and relax for a bit.) Usually later, he would either apologize or would come up and just talk about whatever. It was over, because I let it be over.

This may sound unbelievable, but since realizing this, I don't think we have really argued once. We have heated discussion, but they are utterly focused and then over. We don't always agree, but now we talk about it without anger. It ends up being interesting conversation instead of turning into an argument. There is nothing to be wrong or right about any more. There is only the two of us trying to figure our life out together.

It took me years to figure this out. And I still struggle with it from time to time as the urge to just be RIGHT can be overwhelming. But I have discovered that it is just not worth it.

In short, even though you might feel like you are being wronged, try to think if that is actually the case as it might just be a bad day talking or instead of pointing out how you were wronged, think about how you might be able to fix it INSTEAD of arguing about it. It probably won't work all the time and I know that we will argue again, as well. It's inevitable. But they will be much different from here on out.

Kiwi the Geek said...

WW, your reasoning about going to church makes sense. I'm glad you found a friend who will encourage your commitment, and I hope you find a Bible study where the women will be a good example to you. Just be careful to avoid women with poisonous attitudes.

When you're discouraged, remember 2 Corinthians 12:9-10. It was earth-shattering to me when I realized God is glorified in our *weakness*. When we think we're strong and can do something, we don't rely on God and don't think to give Him credit. But when we reach the end of our rope and cry out to Him for help, that's when He does great work. He will change your attitude and habits; it's not really your effort but His power that makes the change.

Anonymous said...

Stingray, thank you so much for sharing this. I think I do have the same complusion. To crush or impress with how right I am. I never thought of it that way. Really, you are right. What the heck is the big deal? I expect him to be understanding when I am having a hard time, why can't I. Thank you for sharing that. It really doesn't occur to you sometimes when the person you love is telling you this LOL.

Kiwi, I forogt that was in the Bible. Really, I think too much of myself. May it all be for God's glory then because I am surely one of the weakest of all. Thank you both for your encouragement my Sisters in Christ.

One day I will thank you in person at the big Wedding Party :)

WW

Stingray said...

WW,

I just read back over my comment and I REALLY hope you didn't take my comment about me thankfully not being stupid enough to start fights with my husband as a dig at you. It was not meant that way, at all. I was thinking back as I was writing and was feeling relieved. It didn't occurr to me until just now that it might be construed toward you. It is not in anyway.

I am glad that you were able to find what you were looking for here. You will be in my thoughts and prayers over the coming weeks. Take care and chin up.

Anonymous said...

Stingray, not at all. Just very grateful you gave me any of your time and advice at all.

Chin is up Siste, just got to get my butt up now LOL.

Thanks again. Prayers would be so appreciated.

Also a SAHM said...

I realize this thread is kind of old, but I just followed an Instalanche to this site, and I feel like I need to comment, because I really disagree with the advice y'all are giving this lady. If I can summarize, it seems like she's not happy with her relationship, and you're suggesting that if she just makes herself sexier then her husband will change, and then she'll be happy. I really don't think that's how it works - I think she needs to change how she feels herself, so that she can be happy with the relationship as it is.

Now maybe I'm reading the letter wrong, but it sounds to me like Annonymous is really more jealous of her husband's job than jealous of these women. It's not fair, right: he gets to go and be successful and hang out at this fun company that is practically run like a frat party, and you're home by yourself with these little kids that argue with you and throw up on you all day long and won't let you get anything done. And then he comes home and won't help and tells you you're spoiled. I'm guessing you have some anger built up towards him right about now. Unless you personally find working out and giving BJ's fun, I would caution against them - if the real problem is that you're jealous that he has a great life and your life is no fun, the last thing that's going to help is making his life more fun and your life less fun. Especially if he doesn't respond the way you want him to, you're going to get ten times as angry.

My advice would be first to realize that marriage is not fair. There are plenty of SAHM's out there whose husbands work in horrible companies with belittling bosses and back stabbing colleagues, and it's not fair to those guys that their wives get to be home with people who may throw up on them but at least at the end of the day love them. There's really no way for those wives to even things out and make their husbands' jobs better, and there's no way for your husband to even things out for you. Being a SAHM is what it is, however great or horrible the working dad's job is, and there's just no way to make it fair so that both people have a roughly equal amount of job satisfaction. You just have to come to peace with this, and accept that it is wrong of you to be jealous.

Then you need to rekindle your positive feelings for your husband. Get out some old photo albums from when you were dating, and remember how you felt about him back then. Park the kids in front of the TV if necessary, so when he comes home you're not frazzled and hostile, but wrapped in a warm glow of reminiscence. Don't expect him to react in a certain way, just be nice to him and see what happens. Have the kids color pictures for him and present them to him when he gets home. Do things that are fun for you and make you feel warm and fuzzy towards him; it will make you nicer to him, which may or may not change how he treats you, but you will enjoy the relationship more anyway.

Then, once you're in a happier place, you can talk about setting boundaries with his co-workers. But wait until you've gotten over being angry at your isolation as a SAHM - nothing will get resolved with that subtext running under every argument.

Good luck, and sorry if I completely misread your situation.

Also a SAHM said...

Also:

"If you're on the rag, use those evenings to improve your oral skills rather than viewing it as the wife's monthly week off."

Yikes! Is this how Christians talk to one another these days? She's a big girl, I really doubt she needed you to draw her a picture.

SarahsDaughter said...

I don't doubt at all that a picture needed to be drawn in this situation, whether to the OP or to anyone reading. I am privileged (or hopelessly unfortunate) to have women talk to me about their desire to leave their husbands and I always paint a picture for them in order for them to see the truth. I tell them: when you leave, there will be a void that will be filled by another woman, are you ready to deal with that in your life?
The answer is always an emphatic "NO!"

I find NOTHING un-Christian about the advice to work on oral skills during that time of the month. I see it as valuable advice that all women, Christian or not, should learn from. Really "also a SAHM," are we really that prudish that this can't be discussed? I honestly believe that if more blowjobs were happening, there would be a lot more contentment in marriage than what is occurring in our society today.

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