I am 45 and my entire life I have had the same problem. I find a girl I like, then I do everything I can to court her properly—phone calls, texting, flowers—everything you could think of to be a nice, caring guy. Every time, they tell me they just want to be friends and I end up heartbroken. Help! There is nothing I want more than to start a family, but even though everybody says women are desperate to marry and have kids, I can’t seem to find the one desperate enough to take me seriously. What is going on?The rational observer would note the difference between the objective and the results and conclude that the gentleman is going about it all wrong. Which, of course, is exactly the case. Men, particularly Deltas and Gammas, have to get it through their heads that when women say "women find X attractive" what they actually mean is "women like it when attractive men do X".
X!=attractive
The secret is to distinguish between behavior and attractiveness. Proper courting behavior isn't any more intrinsically attractive to women than defecating in the toilet. No man expects a woman to be attracted to him because he doesn't crap in the living room, and in like manner, he shouldn't expect her to be attracted to him because he cares, buys flowers, or sends complimentary texts either.
Now that doesn't mean you must never care or buy flowers or whatever once a woman has established that she is sufficiently attracted and committed to you. Yes, I know most Game theoreticians recommend staying mean to keep them keen, but keep in mind that most of the most successful pick-up artists don't know a damn thing about being married or having long-term relationships because so few of them any successfully experience of either. This does not mean transforming yourself into a hateful gamma man-servant catering to her every wish, it simply means that loyalty and commitment merit the same.
28 comments:
It shouldn't be THAT difficult for a delta to become a provider. What might be the case is the systematic mistake that one of my friends said his friend does: He states early on, in no uncertain terms, that his sole purpose for dating is marriage. Incidentally, he is an engineer.
This is exactly the point where the women seem to lose interest. Yet, I hear, he doesn't seem to ever figure it out.
http://www.threewordphrase.com/singularity.htm
OT but has Vox ever considered that this may be the result of long awaited lady-robots?
This is probably a stupid question, but I feel the need to ask it. You are free to delete this comment it if you deem it to be useless.
What, exactly, do people on this site mean when they say "game"? Roissy, Mystery and other PUAs apparently just use it as a generic term for seduction techniques. Game, because seducing women is a game.
But from what I understand, VD is often referring to 'game theory' from economics. Now, my only knowledge of the game theory comes from the few seconds I spent on Wikipedia, but I have seen very little there that has to do with male-female interaction.
Are these two the same? Is "game" PUAs talk about based on the game theory?
None of the PUA material I've read had any mention of 'game theory' in them.
It doesn't have anything to do with economic game theory. It means theory of WHY those PUA methods work for a much, much larger portion of women than you'd expect. It is more general than a collection of PUA methods that you might try to use without understanding why they work.
When you understand the "why" of it well enough, you no longer need methods and tricks.
You know Vox with all your implied rationality and superhuman powers of observation you should be a master pick up artist. Instead it's people like Roosh doing it and writing the books, and he at least has the decency to admit that it's hard work and a lot of trial and error. You leech off people like Roissy and add a characteristic sneer.
And yet... you're here.
Modernguy, you have no clue what Vox's experience in this domain is.
Regarding relationship game, I have a post up: http://www.koanicsoul.com/blog/2011/10/02/proper-girlfriend-care-and-feeding/
It's a 1 day old blog. Thanks for stopping by.
I've been studying game for just over a year now. Why is it Gamma to tell a woman you are looking for a marriage mate? And why DOES it turn off women?
Yeah, I'm a Gamma. I've swallowed the red pill, but it doesn't seem to be helping. I want to get married, and David X said to "be direct" and "who cares what she thinks". Is it just a calibration issue?
"Why is it Gamma to tell a woman you are looking for a marriage mate? And why DOES it turn off women?"
It's not gamma, it's just engineer-like. The engineer thinks "there are three paths that the future might take.
a) The woman might lose interest in me
b) The woman might only want to have casual sex with me
c) The woman might want to marry me
The engineer thinks, "I'll just eliminate the possibility b. That should't affect the other scenarios." But this is not what the woman hears at all. The woman, who is not yet sure if she is interested in him, thinks there is a subtext there (women ALWAYS see a subtext) that the man is already very close to wanting total commitment, and is likely to cause an embarrassing situation. Worst case, he'll propose in public. So, just in case, she breaks it up.
Noah was an engineer, based on the fact that he was detail oriented. God commanded, and Noah did "just so". Perhaps that is why Noah only brought one wife on board the ark. After 600 years, you'd think a guy that could build an ark that big, could also accumulate a few little pretty feminine persons for the repopulation project.
So... human nature doesn't change, engineers get mostly locked out of the sex market, but God has uses for them from time to time.
Engineering is gamma; the logical mode of thought we have to use (and I am an engineer by choice and profession) is hard to swap for the feminine devious subtextual mode of thought.
Thank you Markku. Being unable to understand woman-speak is like being colorblind. But worse.
However carefully you might try to engineer your words, this is what is going to happen.
She's going to describe it to her best female friend in these words: "He was talking to be about marriage today..." Then, the women will hamsterwheel together like there's no tomorrow, and very soon the unalterable conviction of your words was that you already almost proposed to her.
Koanic, are you going to allow comments on your blog? Are you going to reply to them?
When I met RLB, I think I might have been okay with knowing he was looking for a wife. I was definitely looking for a husband.
That being said (watch this, I'm changing my mind mid-comment), it was probably best that I had no clue. I know now that his tests and negs were a filter that landed me the recipient of the honor.
There's a desperation in the "seeking a wife" designation. It's not attractive.
Knowing that I was merely one of the viable few in the running ensured I (me and the hamster) would continue to attempt to impress. And colored my thoughts of him to that of a very sought after beau, one worth fighting for.
Married men: Are you still a sought after beau? Maintain that and she'll (we'll) continue to put forth mannerisms that arrest your attention.
After learning about game, now I usually say something like, if I meet the right girl, I'll get married, but I'm not thinking about it right now. The subtle neg.
This is not a subtle neg, it is gamma speak for "if someone should ask me why I'm not married yet this is what I'd say."
If you are of an age that "should" be married, and a woman asks why you are not, (you have already been identified as a less than Alpha man) please say to her "that's none of your f'in business." - outside of that, it's already over.
You know Vox with all your implied rationality and superhuman powers of observation you should be a master pick up artist.
It is very, very funny that you should say so. But Roosh is only partially correct. Indifference and Asshole Game are not hard work when you are a genuinely indifferent asshole. And it's not exactly hard to DHV when you've got a record contract and you're driving a Porsche.
I had one friend who was not only better-looking and a much bigger asshole than me, but also owned a nightclub and a more exotic Porsche. He made picking up HB10s look about as hard as waking up in the morning.
I once asked a very beautiful girl I knew he had scored if it had been in the summer or winter that she'd been at his place on the lake. She said winter. I said, "Ah, the snowmobiles". She admitted as much. That's when I told her that Billy didn't own any snowmobiles. Or jet skis, for that matter.
Not only did it work every single time, but none of the women ever learned he didn't even own the supposed rationale for them going to his place. Even pro athletes who were notorious ladies men like Mike Modano were in awe of the guy.
After learning about game, now I usually say something like, if I meet the right girl, I'll get married, but I'm not thinking about it right now. The subtle neg.
That's not a neg. It's too subtle, and worse, it's a delta answer. Redirect. Much better to say "Why would I want to marry you?" Turn it around on her and get her flustered and out of prosecutorial mode.
Deltas and gammas answer female questions because they are Good Little Boys. Alphas and sigmas don't believe they answer to women.
The indignation you encounter when you say "None of your business" is very amusing.
Especially when the questions come from a woman where it really IS none of her business.
In the case I'm talking about, it's the man who brings up the marriage issue first. Answering the question from a woman may be delta, but bringing it up first will just creep her out. Unless she is already reasonably sure that she is interested. Which only happens early on for an alpha, and alphas don't need advice on that anyway.
Believe it or not, marriage sites can be a viable option for Deltas. It gets you past the first hurdle since the stated purpose of the site is to match people for marriage. Having that as a starting point can let you be yourself to some extent, though it is still on you to not break down and follow the same failed courses. I fit the mold of the engineer Marku mentioned to a point. I realized that using that method blindly in market was a non-starter. A marriage site removed that issue though. Out of different sites I tried I'd have to say that EHarmony was the best. They easy you into communication, matching you on various personality and preference points. At each step you can break off communication without too much investment. I met four women in person before meeting my wife so don't expect to get success on the first try. My wife told me I was the last match she was going to contact before cancelling her account. Not an easy path, but it can be helpful.
Personally, I don't get indignant quickly enough for "none of your business" to sound credible. So, I say "no reason". Which is the whole truth. If I am subject to further interrogation, then I'll already be genuinely angry by the time I answer.
"It's complicated" is the best answer. Give the hamster some heads up that it's time to get onto the wheel.
Then get a far away look in your eye, and say something like "well, there was this one person....." trail off. "well, as I said, it's complicated".
That gives the hamster some food for energetic spinning.
"Indifference and Asshole Game are not hard work when you are a genuinely indifferent asshole."
Amazing...no wonder people like you need a god.
It's so cool to tell yourself how cool you are in such a cool way. Reminds me of high school. Do you wear sunglasses at night?
"Reminds me of high school."
Based on how obsessed you are with Vox, yes, I bet it does.
@Smesko said... What, exactly, do people on this site mean when they say "game"? Roissy, Mystery and other PUAs apparently just use it as a generic term for seduction techniques. Game, because seducing women is a game. But from what I understand, VD is often referring to 'game theory' from economics. Now, my only knowledge of the game theory comes from the few seconds I spent on Wikipedia, but I have seen very little there that has to do with male-female interaction.
_______
I can't speak about Mystery, but from what I've seen Roissy is dead on accurate about what gets the common woman's motors running, but his game plan is mostly one dimensional = score or not score. That's why his social hierarchy is Alpha and Beta only, which can be best translated as a Pass/Fail grading scale.
I see Game as being to the social hierarchy as being what the triangle offense was for the NBA. It's simply a strategy that optimizes your chances of success. You won't win every game and may not get the trophy, and it is unlikely to turn a lottery team into a contender, but the win/loss percentage is sure to go up.
To be frank, I don't like game in concept. I've used game for about 15 years, but I didn't know it. When I quit giving a damn, my winning percentage went up. When I got married, i slipped a bit. That's when i found game. I now know it by name and use it in my marriage to make things more pleasant. I'm not happy about the strategy, i'd much rather succeed by flowers and romance with the woman I love. But, like in sports, you can't just use your favorite play... you have to chose one that works.
Coming home from work late, ignoring texts and calls during the day (so she wonders what better I have to do), etc., seem silly to me, but I do them. Putting on cologne when I'm doing nothing but cards with the guys, for example, so she doesn't forget i'm attractive to other women. Look up "competition anxiety" on Roissy for a bit more info.
What works in my marriage may not work in your world. Read some Athol Kay too, especially in regards to marriage.
Anyways, the short answer is Game is a strategy, that includes, but is not limited to, seduction.
Good luck.
(P.S. Women will scold you and shame you for game, but remember: pay no mind to what they say, watch what they do, and especially who they do. You'll likely find behaviors the praise are usually qualities of their male friends, and traits they shame are found in the men they bang. Remember, they teach you how to treat them with their actions, not with their words.)
"Reminds me of high school."
I have no doubt. The high status people are still laughing at your bitter, toothless attempts to bring them down to your lowly level.
I still don't get calling and visiting and flowers. I doubt if any of my women have gotten more than a few such things a year. It's a drag to have to remember all those dates and women seem to remember dates of introduction, engagement when those happened, particularly hot sex, birthdays, holidays. Crap, I can't keep up with it. So a couple times a year I try to remember something, more if they are honestly on the ball on my favorite things.
But if a nag calls me more than a few times a week and/or without a reason other than she just wanted to talk, I fix it. I really like women but they have to figure out their neurosis and paranoia and lonely moments on their own.
I honestly think guys like this are queer, they just don't know it. Yeah, I could be wrong but I've always classified them and gay somehow. They act more like women than men.
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