I've enjoyed reading your game posts as well as Roissy and others. It has explained some mysteries from my single days, and still applies somewhat, now that I've been married for a long time. Here's the rub: given this model of female behavior, how does one raise daughters? Mine are currently pre-teen.What you've missed is that subtlety is entirely lost on women, especially young women. Women are astonishingly - and I would go so far as to argue willfully - obtuse when it comes to not understanding what they do not wish to understand. Ask any Gamma or Delta who has loyally laid his heart at a woman's feet for months, if not years, and whose first romantic gesture is still treated as if it plunged unexpectedly out of orbit, just how observant women are of subtlety.
Some things are pretty obvious:
1) Don't "ride the alpha carousel". Not expressed in those words, of course. More along the lines of "don't give away your heart until you find the one you'll marry."
2) Choose very carefully:
a) Would you be willing to "submit" to this person for the rest of your life? We're Catholic, so "submission" is hardly emphasized at all.
b) Is this the person you want to be the "daddy" of your children?
c) Is this the family you want to marry into?
d) Any red flags?
3) It's okay to be friends with boys, but avoid dating any but "good prospects." See #1.
Less obvious:
4) Being aware of "the hamster".
5) Attraction vs. suitability.
6) College/Career.
What have I missed? My wife was a single mom with a career until we had our son. Since then she has stayed at home. She's not always happy with that choice, but sees the value in it.
Anything short of "don't spread your pretty little legs for exciting losers" is going to be completely lost on PC's daughters. But because they are too young for that sort of direct message at this point in time, what PC needs to be instilling in them is a respect for male strength and a desire to seek male approval. The woman who can distinguish between genuine dominance and the strutter's parody of it in the three seconds that women allot to sexually categorizing men is the one who will be less likely to find herself riding the carousel throughout her twenties.
27 comments:
And marry the little potential traitors off early before they sell their hearts to the nearest alpha, and while they're still virgins.
Like 16 at the latest.
Maybe return to saying the word, "no" all the time in a girls teens, in 20's works the best until marriage. Communicating a "no", is not cool, it will be met with resistance and rejection. To which I'd say, being cool sucks, reject being cool, Making her strong on communicating a "no" can help her weed out the wrong men.
What about telling the girls that 'good girls become married to then have martial relations out of submission to what God wants for marriage'?
The hamster effect is very important for women to realize. It has helped me see my ridiculous feats of overthinking stuff. Sometimes the best thing to tell a girl who is going on and on about some issues is, "chill, go apply your energies someplace else".
Roissy mentioned one point on this in a post, although the topic of raising daughters was not the main topic of the post (LINK) :
"...there is something you can do about your teen daughter in love with a badboy...You can ritualistically humiliate him in front of her. Nothing drains the passion from a girl’s love faster than a public diminution in her lover’s status."
James offered something important. Its very important that the father do humiliate the guy. when it comes from mommy, the girls just get all defiant. when dad puts him down it is a brutal strike to validation of ones choices.
DO.
NOT.
BE.
'FRIENDS'
WITH.
BOYS.
Because eventually, one side of the 'friend' relationship is going to fall for the other side. Uglyness will ensue.
I can attest to "submission" NOT being a Catholic value. Holy smokes.
If the Catholic family that wrote in, truly teaches their daughters these things, they'll be fine.
"The woman who can distinguish between genuine dominance and the strutter's parody of it in the three seconds that women allot to sexually categorizing men is the one who will be less likely to find herself riding the carousel throughout her twenties."
Vox, would you care to elaborate on this idea? Usually I am right with you, but i am not sure i fully comprehend what you are saying in this sentence.
"what PC needs to be instilling in them is a respect for male strength and a desire to seek male approval"
This is not enough to keep them away from exciting losers! The strongest males they will encounter will be the exciting losers -- that's why they're exciting -- and they will yearn for the approval of these exciting losers.
And my niece has just started dating. I fully expect calamity to ensue.
On point #1, young women need to wait until they find the one that will marry them. There's an important difference here. Women too often assume that men share their vision of a future together and give their 'hearts' away only to find out that the man's vision ended there. I know waiting until marriage is probably unrealistic today, but I think it should still be encouraged so that young women hold out longer and maybe in that time discover the real intentions behind the attention.
dudemanhey,
A while back on VP, Vox referenced a study that women make a decision on the sexual attractiveness of a male in three seconds. He seems to be saying that within that time span, daughters should also have discernment skills that would assist them in differentiating those males who demonstrate true constructive leadership and those who merely strut around with a thin veneer of eventual deconstructing dominance.
@dudmanhey - to summarize, a young woman needs to have had a good life long relationship with her loving and family-leading father.
Rev & Zoe -
I understand as much as y'all have stated.
I wanted to hear VD's explanation.
It seems to me he is (unintentionally) saying that girls should only be interested in Alpha males. There are many non-alpha men who will never show a "genuine dominance" - because they are not dominant.
I have friends that way, & who couldn't parody the strut if they wanted to. Going by the last sentence in this post VD seems to be ruling them out entirely.
revrogers, you got it wrong. The logical thing to teach a girl is to get daddies approval. And daddy has to indicate that he will give approval for a good match, and not be all uncomfortable about the topic. This does work. Girls do want daddies approval.
What that firmly implanted, the 3 second rule doesn't matter so much. She can be attracted to all the losers she wants; daddy will crush them if they don't match up.
Timothy Webster,
I agree that daddy's approval is vitally important. However, some girls have no father or they have a father so wrapped around their finger all they have to do is skip in, proclaim the discovery of a "soul mate", and ask for the checkbook to buy a wedding or a present for the charming young man. The deep goal should be a training in discernment especially should daddy's influence disappear.
I’ve just finished a post listing the top eleven reasons why Vox likes to talk about Game. My goal was to make Vox chuckle. If you do too, all the better.
Vox Top 11
Example: 4. It’s fun to be a role model. Every Game post makes Vox a hero for every guy who’s ever been hurt or turned down by a woman . . or made to look like an idiot by one.
Please don't; Game needs to die as quickly as possible.
Anonymous, if you're name is "Game" then I agree with you completely.
Another option is to forget trying to train the daughter and instead make sure the potential alpha-suiters fully appreciate the amount of pain that you, the crazy father, are willing and able to inflict on them.
Daughters compare men against their fathers...the father is the first man they ever know, and thus becomes something of a baseline comparison and standard to measure against all others.
So one thing fathers can do is be the man they want their daughters to fall in love with.
It seems to me he is (unintentionally) saying that girls should only be interested in Alpha males. There are many non-alpha men who will never show a "genuine dominance" - because they are not dominant.
I thought he actually was sort of saying just that. What I gleaned is that he thinks it's fine for non-dominant men to imitate dominant behavior and find a mate. But, if it's his own daughter on the line, he'd rather have her marry a good, genuinely dominant man, and not an imitation. But I could be wrong...
"I know waiting until marriage is probably unrealistic today" - zoegirl
Why is that unrealistic? It's what God commands and requires. Therefore, it is not unrealistic. Difficult? Yes.
However, I note that King David - a "man after God's own heart" - had a man killed and stole his wife. There are instances of incest and other perversions in the Bible - amongst the believers.
The temptation of sex is nothing new. However, the biblical standard of waiting until marriage is timeless.
Is fornication one of the worst sins? No. But it is still sin.
Of course, this is coming from someone who did wait until marriage - and so did his wife. And multiple other friends. Thus, it's entirely realistic to me.
robwbright
At the very least, a man should be dominant in the Biblical sense. I mean, with the mindset and attitude of having the earth in dominion, ruling over the soil with toil, and mastering the beasts therein.
All the men God loved were either cowboys, shepherds, or at the VERY least managed vineyards and orchards.
Mastering nature requires mastering self, mastering the sense of time. Planning and organizing, and having the strength of Will to stick to the plan, and to bring pieces of the plan together. Every time. Reliably.
You ever tried to get a sheep or cow to do what YOU want? Any man who can do so, can handle a woman easily. Women are easier than sheep and cows.
I am very intrigued by this "ritualistically humiliate him" thing, as a father of a single-digit-aged daughter.
Could y'all please elaborate?
I wrote a post adding some thoughts to Vox's very interesting advice.
http://www.josephdantes.com/blogs/shorts/?p=576
Rhology,
Having not yet (or hopefully ever will have) been in that situation with my daughter, I can only extrapolate from a little experience with some 'troubled youth' mentoring I have done and seen.
It is essential to be more alpha than the guy ins at least some way, so start preparing now. It surely wouldn't hurt to be able to bench 300lbs or be good at martial arts, but there can always be a bigger, stronger guy. So, the key is to master him with intelligence and sarcasm, something which will likely be in short supply with said loser. The ultimate goal should be to get him to cry, but anything less along that spectrum is FTW.
Possibly you could just imagine him as one of your daughter's teenage girlfriends and neg him appropriately about his hair or his shoes. The guy would surely be wondering WTF is happening, but if you can make him lose his cool, you are going in the right direction. (might be good to have a concealed taser handy, though)
Or you can capitalize on your daughter's (doubtlessly) better education, and use words he wouldn't understand, complete with veiled insults. Make her snicker and make him wonder what he is missing. And then excuse him from the conversation like a child.
Or if the guy is a complete loser ex-con: "So Jojo, you've done time at County, huh? Bummer--oops, didn't mean to insinuate anything about your experiences there."
"Hey man, ain't nuthin' happened to me like that!"
(hands raised) "Whoa... easy now. Seems like a *sensitive area* for you. I'll just put a plug in it."
Yes, it could get dangerous (hence the preparation), but what's it worth to you? Plus, your wife will be getting the vapors about her hubby by about now. Win win.
Your daughters should know the dangers of the carousel. Not just the 20 something carousel, but the high school, and sadly, the jr high carousel. Your girls should know the truth that as her number of partners goes up, the less value they have in long term relationships aka happily ever after.
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