Thursday, March 17, 2011

How to crush a woman's dreams

Here is a maxim which some may regard as controversial, although it really isn't. Men who want a strong and lasting long-term relationship should crush a woman's dreams without hesitation, if those dreams are not entirely consistent with her primary role as a wife and mother.

There are four reasons for this. The first, and most important, is that in most cases, a woman's dreams are ephemeral and therefore irrelevant in the long term. They are seldom more serious than the child's dreams to become a wizard or a dinosaur. How can we know this is the case? Because what a woman wants - or rather, thinks she wants - changes on a regular basis. Never forget that women are extraordinarily dynamic beings. Every woman I knew in high school and college swore up and down that she didn't want to have children. Every single one. All of them that are married, as well as some who are not, have children now. The rest wish they did. Most of the married, but childless, working women I knew said that they wanted to continue working after they had children. Only about half of them returned to their jobs and most of those who still work wish they didn't need to do so. Women don't have dreams the way that men have goals and objectives, they tend to be more akin to daydreams or romantic fantasies.

Second, most women's dreams are entirely incompatible with what society actually needs them to do. The West will survive without more female scientists, engineers, social workers, and bureaucrats. It will not survive without more wives and mothers. There is literally nothing that a woman can do that is more important than having and raising children, since everything else men can do, and in most cases can do better.

Third, if one looks beneath the surface description of female dreams, ninety percent of what women say they dream about doing involves little more than putting them in a position where they can expect to have the opportunity of sex with a certain type of alpha. That's not to say they don't genuinely enjoy the comedy skits, the ear-tagging, or the big city life, but at the end of the day, it is sex with the dominant men in those environments that harbors the deeper appeal for them. The woman who dreams of being an archeologist probably has a genuine interest in archeology, but she is usually less interested in archeology qua digging up ancient artifacts than she is in the requisite affair with the handsome, world-famous archeologist in an exotic locale. We saw this in the martial arts all the time. Put a woman in a dojo and she'll be having sex with one of the black belts within weeks. The same thing holds true with tennis instructors, workout trainers, divemasters, golf instructors and so forth, which is why it's considered one of the important perks of the job in those otherwise poorly compensated professions.

Fourth, women tend to like the idea much better than the reality. Like the pretentious guys who hang out in coffee shops and put ten times the effort into telling you about the book they are writing than they do into actually writing anything, it is the feeling of the journey that is the point rather than the arrival at the destination. And this leads us to how a man can completely crush a woman's dreams while still managing to come off as the good guy.

I once read a book review of Hillary Clinton's book, Living History, in which the reviewer made use of what he admitted to be the sadistically cruel tactic of quoting the author literally and in full. I mention this because the best way to convince a woman to abandon her dream is not to argue with her, to attempt to reason her out of it, or even to oppose it in any way, but rather to back her dream to the hilt with manic enthusiasm. Think Janice helping Chandler go to Yemen on Friends. If a woman speaks yearningly of her desire to vaccinate poor children in Mozambique, contact an aid foundation, offer to help her fill out the application, make an appointment for all the vaccinations, and tell her it's a great idea for her to spend the entire summer in Africa since you're going to be watching the World Cup anyhow. If she talks about wanting to attend comedy school, sign her up for a local stand-up show and make handouts to give to all her friends and family. If she says she wants to be a writer, buy her a thesaurus and offer to hold her accountable to a daily word count.

In short, call her dream with cheerful and over-the-top abandon. In most cases, she'll begin to hate the idea within a few weeks, quietly drop it, and get angry with you if you so much as mention it to her again. Don't rub it in, just let her drop it and be careful not to get caught up in Male Objective Syndrome and actually put her on the plane to Yemen; remind yourself that she doesn't really want to go. And on the off-chance that she's serious about wanting to devote her fertile years to studying ear mites that are only found in a certain species of fruit bat in Madagascar, the sooner you find that out and move on to someone else who actually wants to spend her life with you and bear your children, the better.


Joseph Dantes said...

You call it theory, but it's obviously practical wisdom.

Thanks for this. Makes everything so clear.

Stingray said...

May I please emphasize the "Don't rub it in"? It will bring on a huge amount of sh*t tests that are unnecessary. She feels bad enough already about quitting and being wrong about herself. If she is the "one" remind her of your future together and what you both will accomplish together. It will give her another sense of purpose that she will need at that point in time.

ThirdMonkey said...

I did the same thing, only by accident. We married the summer she graduated from high school. We immediately started college (I had already gone 1 year), and both had academic scholarships. I graduated with the same major I started with. She changed almost every semester. Once, she changed to Restaurant Management, so we both got jobs in a restaurant. She hated every minute of it, I loved it. I graduated after 4 years and immediately got a job in another city, and started gathering info on colleges in the area so she could transfer. She got a part-time job instead. Three years later, we transferred, and I did the same thing (mostly at the request of her divorced, workaholic mother). Her response: "NO! If we move, I'm not going to look for another job, you're buying me a house, and you're getting me pregnant." Three weeks later, mission accomplished. Fast forward 6 years, and she's now pregnant with our third, and we start homeschooling our oldest in the fall. Crush her femenist dreams, and you'll both have the life you really want.

Ari said...

Calling her bluff doesn't always work. My teenage bride said she wanted to go to medical school.

I'm now married to a 31 year old Doctor. But our marriage is getting along great after all these years.

Anonymous said...

What if she wants more kids, which is a very motherly thing to do?

The rub being, she still wants to work her full-time job.

My thinking is that she wants to hold a baby, to make her feel like a mom but she does not want to to the day to day "hard / boring stuff" as she sees it.

How to get her to drop the idea though?

Stingray said...

As holding the baby quietly and lovingly only happens about 1% if the time remind her of how much work the rest of the 99% is. If this doesn't work find a baby for her to baby sit. If this doesn't work, better find out if she truly means it and if you want more yourself.

If this is too much, just say no.

Stingray said...

Oh, and if she wants to still work her full time job? I'd either go for the "You need to quit your job" route or simply the "no" route.

By the way, do you want more?

Vox said...

It would be interesting to see statistics on the number of major changes broken down by sex. I strongly suspect that a contributing factor to the decrease in the four- and five-year graduation rates is the increased percentage of female college students.

As for more kids, it entirely depends what you want. If you want more, go for more. If not, then don't.

Nate said...

Odd as it sounds given my circumstance... I am in complete agreement with VD on this.

Early on I asked DrWho if she had to choose between being a wife and a mother and a doctor, which would she choose... and she didn't bat an eye. She said her priorities were "Wife, Mommy, Doctor"

It was good enough for me.

She had talked about being a doctor since she was 5 years old... and I knew when she took a job as a CNA in college and literally spent time digging shit out old people's bowels that she was under no illusions.

Nate said...

Dude... we need more white people. knock her up.

Nate said...

The kid thing.. you have to be careful about that one. If she has badass female reproduction drive going on... if he says "no" she is quite likely to simply figure out a way to make it happen anyway.

Refusal is a bad.. bad idea in that one case.

You're better off asserting some control over how and when it will happen and what the circumstances will be once the child arrives.

otherwise.. you risk raising the mail man's kid... or losing yours and spending the rest of your life as indentured servant.

ThirdMonkey said...

Question for anonymous: Does she work becasue she wants to, because she has to, or because you want granite countertops and a boat? If your wife works so that you can make payments on your Harley, your pimping out your wife, plain and simple. If you want her home with the kids, you have to either bring the livestyle down, increase your income, or both. Get out of debt, sell the boat and the SUV that pulls it, work on improving yourself professionally so that you can provide for your growing family. If you can already afford to live on one income, yet she still wants to work full-time AND have a baby, indulge her. Knock her up, but don't "help" around the house. Come home from work, play with your kids, but, for Hitchen's sake, don't gamma up and fold clothes, wash dishes, or go grocery shopping. I never washed a dish until my wife "retired" at 25. Crush her dreams with piles of laundry,dishes, and dirty floors. You've got to show her that being a wife and a mother is THE most important full-time job she could have, and that saying "yes" to a career means she says no to you and your kids.

Lolly Willowes said...

I think that most women would be more than happy to stay at home and raise their families full time, but it's not that easy these days for a young American woman to find a man who's a) capable of supporting a wife and kids, b) willing to accept the seriously reduced standard of living that goes with being a sole breadwinner, and c) and isn't some kind of controlling, abusive freak.

Vox said...

That may well be true, Lolly. But it certainly doesn't help when the women who are interested in doing that are telling all and sundry the precise opposite in an illogical attempt to attract the sort of man you describe through deception.

Thinking back on it, I can only think of one woman who was entirely straightforward about her desire to a) marry, b) have children, and c) stay at home to raise them. And she also remained a virgin into her thirties despite being fairly pretty. Fortunately, she did eventually marry, have several children and raise them at home.

Anonymous said...

Stingray: It is a very emotional thing for her. She has had multiple miscarriages, almost died during the last one. So we would pursue the adoption route again... and they probably wouldn't be "white". (@ Nate) But I find that a person's character is more important then the color of their skin... that and how well they shoot.

As for the "baby fix" / babysitting, church nursery she has never seemed interested and has expressed no desire to do that and I have suggested it to her a couple times over the last few years. So it makes me think that her having the baby is what has the meaning for her. But the adopting does not give her that meaning so I am not really sure what the hamster is doing about all of that. And frankly I do not care any longer.

Would I like more, yes I would like one or two more. BUT... only if one of us is staying home full-time. For that to happen a lot needs to change and be given up. Material stuff, give up paying on house (meaning foreclosure) as we couldn't stay where we are and afford for one of us to quit. We would also start back with homeschooling. We've paid off a good amount of debt but still have quite a bit more. I am more then willing to change our lifestyle to reach our goals, she has been to a certain extent but will not do all that needs to be done. Classic case of her wanting the cake and eating it too in the material realm.

As of this time we have agreed to pursue adoption in a set amount of time. But that was based on us continue to pay off debt and now it seems her tune is changing on her desire to continue to do that.
We will be discussing that over the next few days.

And I have been starting to mention that I believe that if/when we have another child one of us needs to be home full-time with that child as well as our others.

Stingray said...

Ok, that is a bit of a different situation than I originally thought. This may not seem relevant, but may I ask how many kids you do have?

I have some further thoughts (please take them for what they are, thoughts only. You are going to be the best person to assess this situation fully.) Give me a few minutes to think.

C.D. said...


Thanks for posting this.

JCclimber said...

Doesn't matter how many children they already have. Families used to have 10 or more children, back before all the modern conveniences that made being home so much easier (running water, dishwashers, fridges, electric ovens and microwaves, easily available food at the grocery store, electric washing machines, etc.)

The basic option should be this: One parent remains at home full time. It can be the father or the mother. Whomever stays at work will need to work very hard and bring home the bacon to support by themselves. And quitting will NOT be an option.

Stingray said...

JC, that's not why I asked. He is trying to figure out what the hamster is thinking and I am trying to give some possible insight into that. If she was only able to have one baby, she may want to have more for emotional reasons. I am not coming at this from a financial standpoint. More from what she may be thinking.

Stingray said...

Anon, (Please take the following for what it is worth)

A couple of thoughts First about the miscarriages. One thing that could be going on in her head is that she does not feel like a complete woman not being able to carry a baby to term (I am very sorry for you and your wife.) Think of it in terms of not being able to get her pregnant. She may feel like less of a woman. She may be coming from a place of wanting to fulfill her place as a woman, as it were. Adoption, while bringing a baby into the house is not going to fill in that gap.That might explain why she is not interested in babysitting, as well. It would also be a reminder as to what she sees as something she has not been able to, again, accomplish for the both of you.

This may explain the "wanting her cake and eating it too". If she KNEW that she could have another of your children she may not hesitate to give up all of the material things. But not knowing is making it easier to hold onto those things. Think of that stuff as a crutch. It is a way to not have to face the pain of losing another baby and disappointing the both of you again. Plus, she probably is not genuinely sure she does want to give up those things if it does not work out. Not to mention the fear of death.

If you do decide to adopt, something to think about, and beware, this will sound crass. Be sure that you both will be able to look at that child as your own. Not all are able to do that.

Again, I am very sorry for your losses. I can't imagine for a second what that is like.

Anonymous said...


VD, as I mentioned I am open to more kids but only if our lifestyle changes (yes, even more change?! *gasp* Her usual response).

And Nate does have a point about the female reproduction drive. Although while she has said she wants another baby, since it would not be biological, I don't know how that would really work with her drive and all. I know she has self-esteem issues surrounding that (among other areas in her life).

I have taken the approach that Nate is suggesting, since mid year '10 we have agreed to start pursuing (save up for) adoption in a set amount of time in the future, more then a year in the future. And since then I am continuing to say that one of us needs to be home full-time. Trying to lead and have some control of the situation.

3rdMonkey, she works because she wants to, very much so.
She always said that marriage, children and work were important to her, equally. So she wants all three basically. But she will complain about not having enough time for 1 or 2 of the 3 at any given moment. Although I am finding that work seems to be the most important to her judging by her actions (ignoring what she says).

I would gladly give up my work (and stay home). I do make good money, have a good position that is somewhat interesting to me, but I find my children's future a much better investment and more interesting (incl. homeschooling) as well as pursuing my own adventures (on the cheap) and planning adventures for our family. But she as of the last 3 years makes more then me and this year makes quite a bit more then me. I don't have an issue with that except when she has brought it up in arguments (She ignores the fact that for 7 yrs of our marriage I made more then she did. Although since I asked her to stop she has not brought it up directly).

I would rather have a Hayabusa then a Harley but I don't. We do have granite counter tops but only because they came with the house. She wants a boat (power) for the lake, I would rather have a boat (sail) for the ocean that we could actually live on if we choose. We have neither.
We have two cheap cars, one paid off. One will be paid off in a year... due to my goals and her bonus money.

As for me improving myself professionally... I have done that and it has not gotten me very far. Could I try harder, sure you can always try harder. I find that I am in a similar situation to Nate, it comes a price point where if you have kids it makes more sense for one of you to stay home full-time and homeschool the kids.
In Nate's case DrWho had the better income potential or whatever and so he stays home. (Unless something has changed in the last year or so). In my case my wife does not want to "be responsible as the main bread winner of the family", so she wants both of us to work.

You are preaching to the choir about changing lifestyle. I am willing to live in a 800 sq ft 2 bedroom apartment with 1 bath for a year 1/2 to pay off our debt. She is not. Where we are at right now, financially we can not yet live on one income, without some major changes. I am thinking about how best to go about those changes now (and add kid(s)) or keep things the way they are (and not add kids).

I find it amazing, at least to me, that I started off as a Beta (at least) with possible Sigma tendencies back in high school and college and moved to Delta? or Gamma? because I thought I was "doing the right thing" and tried to make my marriage an "equal partnership."

I was so naive and stupid... but I can learn. I will never stop learning and from that learning I can change. So I am.

Anonymous said...

Stringray, you put my jumbled thoughts into words. Your 11:46am post is right on the dot in terms of what she is most likely feeling / thinking, her loss both her's as a woman as well as ours as a couple wanting children. But I think it is more for her own sake, because I have told her many times that I am fine with the number we have we have more then enough to keep us busy with their school work and with our full-time jobs and church and their activities, etc.

I've seen your posts previously and I believe you are genuine person, so I appreciate your thoughtful response.

JC, I agree with you somewhat but I am trying to walk the line of being considerate of her feelings / hopes / female dreams but also not trying to let them rule our lives... like I have done in the past. That is why I go back and forth to "I don't care what she is thinking, when we follow her feelings we ride an emotional rollercoaster" to wanting to be understanding, etc. I need to not mistake understanding with doing what she wants, what her emotions are telling her to do at any given moment. But from her perspective based on past history, she does not feel I truly "understand" unless we are doing what she wants to do.

Stingray, your last full paragraph, I am well aware of that possible issue and believe that it is already somewhat in play for our current situation. Although addressing it is a very tough topic because it immediately is taken to the dramatic conclusion of "You think I am a terrible mother who hates my (adopted) child!!!" When that is not the case, I just see a difference in attention / interactions between her and the children.

Thanks again for your wise input... and everyone else's.

Stingray said...


One more thing popped into my head. Again, take it for what it is worth. She may not know what she wants at all. (Though she won't tell you this as it may not even have occurred to her.) She may just need/want you to tell her what she wants and then be done with the whole thing. (DO NOT phrase it this way. Something along the lines of "OK, this is what we are going to do and this is why" will be much better received. She may get pissed but she will likely respect you for it. Again, this is something you will have to know for your marriage.)

I wish you luck with this, sir. It cannot be easier for either of you.

Stingray said...


Also, thank you for your kind words.

Stephen J. said...

I'm down with you on not needing more social workers or bureaucrats, but I don't see any reason to stop women being scientists or engineers if they want. We can always use more scientists and engineers, and in practice so few women *do* want to be scientists and engineers that it doesn't make much difference.

There is one (rare but problematic) landmine in this approach which you don't mention, which is that if you mistake a real ambition for one of these passing fancies, sometimes offering material, logistical and psychological support for the ambition is exactly what can trigger it into full energetic life. Then, when you realize the ambition isn't fading away as you expected, you're either committed to going along with her and reshuffling your own priorities, or confronted with the necessity of crushing a *real* dream by taking away the support she may have come to count on, and admitting in the process that you were deliberately deceiving her by affecting to take her ambition more seriously than you actually did. (Either of these may be preferable to the other in specific situations, but it seems to me both are better avoided if possible.)

One way to tell ambitions from dreams is: was she seriously working on bringing it to fruition before she met you, does she get something out of it that has nothing to do with you being there, and would she most likely go on with it if you broke up, even if it was you who introduced her to it or made it possible for her?

bob k. mando said...

There is literally nothing that a woman can do that is more important than having and raising children, since everything else men can do, and in most cases can do better.

as a relevant example, everyone should ask themselves how long a MAN would have put up with this idiocy ... even assuming he didn't recognize the source quotes.

the good stuff starts about 5 min in:

HR departments truly are dumping grounds for completely useless women.

The LP 999/Linda said...

Well done!

Anonymous said...

As a woman, I find this discussion very enlightening. I don't know what sort of women you know, but you don't appear to respect them very much. Women do, as a whole, have a deep need to be mothers; its in our dna. However, the fact that you discuss treating women like they have no clue what they want is really astonishing. Perhaps it is what most men are truly thinking. Perhaps your women respect you too much to believe that this is really the way you feel. Perhaps if they read your comments they would see some part truth and some complete misunderstandings that are so far off base as to be funny. And by the way, I am a conservative, stay at home, homeschooling mother of five. And although I know what I want, I also know that I can't usually have it because my children and husband are more important than my dreams. That doesn't mean that my dreams are less valid ore important, it just means that I am willing to give them up for the good of my family.

GOrbachev said...

This is exactly true.

My SO talks the talk - but won't ultimately walk the walk. She's more than content to let me lead her on everything. All the time.

But she pretends she's independent and free and working hard towards her self-defined goals. I'm getting close to calling her on it.

But this tactic is good - back her to the hilt and then see what happens.

Anonymous said...

See, you must NOT be talking about alpha women because if you truly were, the alpha woman would gladly take your backing and go to Africa. That's a true alpha woman. I KNOW this, because I AM one. I happily pursue my goals, have ZERO children and am a Mensan. You're just not informed enough on true alphas.

Anonymous said...

This is not true of all women--just those whom you happen to have met so far. It is true that a woman occasionally has needs, but an intelligent woman is one who is capable of listening to both her brain and her ovaries, telling the difference between the two and satisfying both. As a rule, I find that it's a lot faster to satisfy maternal instincts by looking after people that I like who happen to need some of it. However, this does not take all day, nor every day. I have been taking martial arts from a tall, handsome man for months, and I have not had sex with him, nor will I. Ovaries are tiny, and the brain weighs 1400g--and unlike them will still be worth something after the age of 50, give or take a few years--I think it's a no-brainer, really. They are stupid little things and don't know the difference between a child and the sensation of general acts of altruism. In your defense, though, a woman such as the ones you describe is exactly the calibre upon which you should be setting your sights. Someone else that much better than you would only be inconvenienced and annoyed by your presence, possibly to the point of homicide. For you, obviously, sex and relationships are just like karaoke--follow the bouncing boobs and you can't go wrong.

I've conversed with semiconscious hard drug addicts that were more talented, far sweeter and vastly more attractive than you, at least mentally. Thank you for identifying yourself as a douchebag--many others will not show us this kind of courtesy as readily as you have.

Anonymous said...

Oh. My. Goddess. No wonder women want change! Do you hear yourselves uttering these inane, idiotic comments? 1) You all deserve to be slaves to a tribe of Amazons- not the sexual kind either, 2)I hope none of you ever debase a woman enough to make her BELIEVE this rubbish (or you get locked up for emotional abuse for it, at least) and 3) you piss off enough intelligent, conniving, power-hungry women that you once again find yourself at the root of all civilization: the matriarchal society.

Anonymous said...

Oh- and another thing- if you guys *could* actually make enough to give us the things we desire AND not have to have two paychecks to get by, you know, that'd be GREAT.
Right now, since I make a lot more than my husband, I see him being the one who will ENJOY being home with our children. And I don't really see a difference. We're just doing what needs to be done- THAT is a woman's job.

Anonymous said...

What rubbish...and then, when the woman is bitter in her 40s and 50s and 60s when she looks forward and sees less time left than has already passed, then it's her fault for being a woman. This is disgusting.

Anonymous said...

This is utter nonsense. Women are human beings too, and are as ambitious and hard-working as men, sometimes even more. Your words seem to be based on your own experiences, all I can say is grow up, bud. The truth is probably some woman 'defeated' you, and you're being a complete (forgive the language) arse about it. Your opinion that a woman is all about having sex with 'alpha' and so called 'dominant' men are so outrageous. You are a complete caveman and proud of it too. All I can say is, the women in your life must be so piteous. Wait a sec, d'you even have any?
GROW UP, DUDE! AND QUIT THIS MEN ARE GREATER THAN WOMEN BS! Praying for you and all the 'ballsy' males who commented her, asking how to crush a women's dream. You people obviously need it.

To all women, DREAM ON.

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