Saturday, March 19, 2011

Alpha Mail: be careful what you wish

HM5 engages in some enlightened snowflaking:
As a woman, I find this discussion very enlightening. I don't know what sort of women you know, but you don't appear to respect them very much. Women do, as a whole, have a deep need to be mothers; its in our dna. However, the fact that you discuss treating women like they have no clue what they want is really astonishing. Perhaps it is what most men are truly thinking. Perhaps your women respect you too much to believe that this is really the way you feel. Perhaps if they read your comments they would see some part truth and some complete misunderstandings that are so far off base as to be funny. And by the way, I am a conservative, stay at home, homeschooling mother of five. And although I know what I want, I also know that I can't usually have it because my children and husband are more important than my dreams. That doesn't mean that my dreams are less valid ore important, it just means that I am willing to give them up for the good of my family.
What could possibly be astonishing about treating women as if they have no clue what they want when they observably do not? Remember, we're not talking about momentary desires here, but rather dreams, those life objectives that fundamentally reflect the deepest and most sincere aspects of the individual's personality. If a grown man tells me that his dream is to be a NFL quarterback, I correctly conclude that he is deluded because it's not possible for someone to start playing football post-college at such a high level. If a young man tells me that his dream is to be a nuclear physicist and a marine biologist, I correctly conclude that he doesn't know what he wants because the two objectives are mutually exclusive. And if a man says he dreams of becoming a rock star but can't sing and doesn't bother learning to play an instrument, I correctly conclude he is not serious about it.

So, why would one reach conclusions that are any different when one hears women express dreams that are either a) impossible, b) mutually exclusive, or c) totally at variance with their present course of action? HM5 says that the female need to be a mother is in every woman's DNA. I think she is correct, so what is a man to conclude when literally every woman his age tells him that she does not want to have children? He can either take them all at their word, which is what HM5 is implying, or he can do as I advise and ignore what they say they want.

And in retrospect, considering that every single one of those women eventually changed their minds, it is readily apparent that the latter choice is the correct one.

To illustrate the nature of the problem, we need look no further than HM5's mutually exclusive assertions that 1) her dreams are no less valid or important than her children and husband vs 2) her children and husband are more important than her dreams. (NB: note the tell-tale order there). While we can, and should, laud her for putting her family first, there is no way for us to take her at her word because she contradicts herself.

Most men understand on some level that they cannot hold a woman accountable to her words in the same manner they do men, even if they are reluctant to articulate this or admit it to themselves. Women habitually say no when they mean yes, pretend they don't want what they desperately desire, and tell people things they don't actually mean. And women can't afford to have men take their words seriously, for if they did, only gammas and low deltas would ever stay with any woman more than a few hormonal cycles. In fact, one of the coldest things any man can do is take a woman literally at her word and quote her words back at her when she reverses course, as she will inevitably do over time.

"Oh, so now you want children? Well, that's just too bad. I respect you far too much to not take your past declarations on the subject as final." "What's that, you want to stop working and stay home with the kids now? Oh no, you said you wanted to continue with your career, and I absolutely respect that decision." "You hate me? Very well, I'm out of here... after all, you wouldn't have said it if you didn't mean it and I respect what you're telling me now."

It is said that one should be careful what one wishes for. There is a price to having one's words taken seriously, and I very much doubt it is a price that most women would be wise to pay. They do better to prefer the luxury of being able to change their mind. This isn't to say that one can never change one's mind, after all, situations change. But one cannot simultaneously expect to enjoy the flexibility of changing one's mind at any moment as well as respect for one's consistency.

The observable fact is that women are intrinsically more dynamic than men. We see this from a very young age, when "yes... no" and "no... yes" becomes such an important part of every young girl's vocabulary. This dynamism is one of the things that makes women such fascinating creatures to study, but it also renders it impossible for the sufficiently experienced man to put too much credence in anything a woman says at any one time. A woman may know what she wants today, but experience informs us that we can be fairly confident that whatever it may be she wants tomorrow, it will not be that.

39 comments:

Doom said...

Lord knows, I loved to get my last lady love to say "I hate you!". She finally figured out I was playing her like a violin and still couldn't quite bring herself to not say it. Oh, I smiled, and laughed, and enjoyed. It was good to know she actually loved me. I just needed to hear it once in a while. Trust me, in women talk, that made perfect sense. Too bad she really wouldn't let me manage the finances. I would have married her, but not her debt and spending.

Eric S. Mueller said...

I wish this blog had been around years ago. After 10 years of marriage, I'm finally starting to understand that while my wife and I may use the same words, they don't mean the same things. And while I've known this for a while, I've had no idea what to do with it. The posts and discussion on this blog and at The Chateau are helping a lot.

Samson said...

The "don't give women what they want" post is going in my "classics of online wisdom" bookmarks folder.

I forwent not a few romantic opportunities in my early twenties because the girls invariably told me their future plans involved career, never children. I didn't understand, as I do now, that a woman's desires change with time, and with male influence. This is such a common occurrence among young men (see: Boundless), who often take years to learn the lesson, and yet the solution is so easy.

zoegirl said...

I think what HM5 was referring to is the idea of competing dreams. For most women, the dream of a husband and children win, but for that to happen we intentionally give up our other dreams. And some women will pursue that other dream once their children are grown and they are no longer needed full time.

Vox said...

Correct, Zoegirl, but what you have to keep in mind is that in many cases, the dream of husband and children is never mentioned to most of the men she encounters before the age of 25. Instead, she talks ad infinitum about her plans to be a dinosaur or wizard or whatever.

The man who takes her seriously, like Samson, will miss out. It is the man who completely ignores her dreams and crushes them who will provide her what she actually wants.

Anonymous said...

"In fact, one of the coldest things any man can do ..."

Cold can be so exhilarating.

- Salt

Anonymous said...

"...In fact, one of the coldest things any man can do is take a woman literally at her word and quote her words back at her when she reverses course, as she will inevitably do over time."


I've done this very thing. Is it any wonder why I'm divorced?

Athor Pel

The Deuce said...

"Oh, so now you want children? Well, that's just too bad. I respect you far too much to not take your past declarations on the subject as gospel." "What's that, you want to stop working and stay home with the kids now? Oh no, you said you wanted to continue with your career, and I absolutely respect that." "You hate me? Very well, I'm out of here... after all, you wouldn't have said it if you didn't mean it and I respect what you're saying."

This strategy *can* be an effective way to pass a shit test from time to time. It goes like this with my wife:

Me: What's wrong?
Her (pouty-faced): Nothing!
Me: Oh, good. Well, I'm going to go play video games.

The Deuce said...

The funny thing is, when they're not being offended at a man pointing it out, women will gladly point out that they don't know what they want themselves, though not in those exact words, and will attempt to spin their fickle nature as a strength. You ever heard Shania Twain's "Any Man Of Mine?"

robwbright said...

Vox said: "HM5 says that the female need to be a mother is in every woman's DNA. I think she is correct"

No need to "think". It is written in Proverbs 30:

"There are three things which are never full, even four which never say, Enough: The underworld, and THE WOMAN WITHOUT A CHILD; the earth which never has enough water, and the fire which never says, Enough.

And Vox said: "The observable fact is that women are intrinsically more dynamic than men. We see this from a very young age, when "yes... no" and "no... yes" becomes such an important part of every young girl's vocabulary."

It is written in Matthew 5:37:

"Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one."

According to Jesus Christ, if a woman does that, she is giving place to the evil one. While the evidence is that woman tend towards that behavior more than men, I've known plenty of men who do it - and I've done it myself.

JRL said...

(NB: note the tell-tale order there).

Please explain. She put husband/family first...then her other dreams. Sounds like she's got her priorities straight.

Vox said...

Her priorities outside the family are fine. I thought it was potentially significant that she twice happened to write "children and husband" rather than the way that one would normally write "husband and children".

Anonymous said...

woman more than a few hormonal cycles.

This reminds me of the phrase "barefoot and pregnant". Looking at the footwear, I can only wonder at their masochism.

From pregnancy through the end of breastfeeding, there are NO hormonal cycles. Put more simply, their hormones and heads tend to stay level.

I would add that what comes out is a difference between words and actions. A "Sex and the City" lifestyle is not aiming toward marriage, nor is being a workaholic. If they want a husband and children, they need to be taking actions to find one. They may want to wait, but the market will be drying up while they do so, and when they suddenly start, they will have to unlearn a decade of bad habits.

India might have it right - the parents arrange the marriages. Here, it is likely only to happen in the context of a conservative religious belief, and I don't see that many young single women in church - possibly because they find the single young man.

Singapore is doing state-sponsored match-making, a few years ago I saw a documentary, but can't find it, only an article http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3413/is_2_13/ai_n28720990/ - the problem they say is because women are now college graduates and are on a career path, so don't think about becoming mothers.

if a man says he dreams of becoming a rock star but can't sing and doesn't bother learning to play an instrument, I correctly conclude he is not serious about it.

Such things have not been a barrier to many.

-tz

Stickwick said...

I recognized the significance of what HM5 wrote, because a lot of women I know prioritize children over husbands. The irony is their failure to recognize that putting husbands first is actually the best way to ensure the well-being of their children.

JRL said...

Vox - Got it.

Stickwick - I've seen it as well. Even in women that intellectually agree to the primacy of the husband/wife relationship. Often the kids simply take up so much time, mental and emotional effort, not to mention the confounding factor of maternal instinct, there is an unconscious shift and the edifice looms large, while the foundation is nearly forgotten.

HM5 could also be mentioning the kids first because they are the primary limiting factor. Perhaps she could pursue some of her other dreams if she did not have kids.

"And although I know what I want, I also know that I can't usually have it because...(in order of limiting factor)"

Possible...

The LP 999/Linda said...

wow, I am working up a post on this topic as well as the post regarding women's dreams...more to come later. last day of funeral. some details to wrap up

IndyGuy77 said...

Again, if your primary operating theory on women is "They are insane" you will make your way in the world much easier.

What I find frustrating about women is how they will passionately state something that you find utterly convincing. Then some time later they never remember saying that at all.

IndyGuy77 said...

Vox said...

Her priorities outside the family are fine. I thought it was potentially significant that she twice happened to write "children and husband" rather than the way that one would normally write "husband and children".

"twice"? Am I missing another post?

I wouldn't think it strange at all that a woman would type it in that order. But I also think most folks have warped priorities.

Northern Observer said...

"That doesn't mean that my dreams are less valid ore important"

Is she comparing her dreams' value/validity to her children and husband, which would be the contradiction you referenced, or is she saying that her dreams' value/validity are not diminished by her having children and a husband, which would be comparing the the dreams' value/validity to themselves under two different scenarios.

PaulC said...

Hi, I'm actually a fan - of most of the stuff that pops up on this site.
But your... dislike for women really is something else. Whoever the gal was who did you damage, she did a hell of a job - you're in your 40's and you still hate her - a lot. So far she's won, dude. Sorry, but you're a mess in this regard.
Like I say, I like a lot of what I read on this site, but, man. You hate women, tall-time.
It's your life - and god forbid you get a woman to share it with you. Man - you could probably do a lot of good in some ways, but you've got too much anger towards the gals, man!
Best regards...

IndyGuy77 said...

PaulC: You're obviously a moron.

Vox said...

"You hate women, tall-time. It's your life - and god forbid you get a woman to share it with you."

You clearly need to spend more time reading this and other Game blogs. You clearly don't understand how women work. I suggest you look up the terms "hypergamy", "DHV", and "Dark Triad".

So understand that I don't hate women. I actually quite like them. I simply do not respect most of them. There is a significant difference there. Do you think that men who don't respect children and animals therefore hate them?

Respect is something that must be earned but many women don't believe they need to earn it, they believe it should be granted to them by virtue of the fact that they are sexually attractive to men. And this is a perfectly rational belief because so many gammas, deltas, and betas are happy to grant it to them on that basis.

Which, of course, is why it is such a shock to women when they run into someone who expects them to merit it before it is granted.

bob k. mando said...

That doesn't mean that my dreams are less valid ore important

she just ... elevated ephemeral daydreaming to be of equivalent importance to her family?

why am i not surprised.

PaulC said...

Hello, I thought I'd left a comment a minute ago but I guess it did not work out - this will tuncate what I thought I'd left.
Indy - right back at ya, peanut!
Vox - I'm not that deep into your web site. Fair enough. You simply come across to my eyes as one of those guys who hates the gals too much because of whatever. I'm sure it's not true - that's just how you (and some of your fawning commentators, for sure) come across.
I wish y'all the best.

Stephen J. said...

"I simply do not respect most of them."

What do you mean by "respect" in this context, and what would a woman have to do to earn it?

Or, conversely, if you start with the "innocent until proven guilty" approach, what are most women quickest to do that costs them your respect, and how long does it typically take to happen?

I have known men who changed their minds about what they believed and wanted. Is the difference simply a willingness to admit, "yes, once I said something different, but I came to see I was wrong because..."? Ephemeral wildness is not good, but I'd rather not confine people to the opposite pole of pigheaded inflexibility, either.

civilServant said...

So when a woman is asked "Do you take this man to be your husband?" and she answers, "I do" - do you take her seriously?

jay c said...

I wish this blog had been around years ago.

I am so glad I didn't find these concepts back when. I chose very poorly the first time I married. It didn't end well, but I'm glad it ended. Now I'm on to building something better with a much better toolkit.

jay c said...

So when a woman is asked "Do you take this man to be your husband?" and she answers, "I do" - do you take her seriously?

Was her father present? I'll take her vow seriously if he backs it.

Numbers 30

2 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said.

3 “When a young woman still living in her father’s household makes a vow to the LORD or obligates herself by a pledge 4 and her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she obligated herself will stand. 5 But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the LORD will release her because her father has forbidden her.

6 “If she marries after she makes a vow or after her lips utter a rash promise by which she obligates herself 7 and her husband hears about it but says nothing to her, then her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand. 8 But if her husband forbids her when he hears about it, he nullifies the vow that obligates her or the rash promise by which she obligates herself, and the LORD will release her.

civilServant said...

""So when a woman is asked "Do you take this man to be your husband?" and she answers, "I do" - do you take her seriously?"

"Was her father present? I'll take her vow seriously if he backs it."

So ... you take _him_ seriously, but not her.

If he allots her to you for marriage, and you accept but she says "no" ... is the marriage valid?

civilServant said...

Anyone else then? When a woman is asked "Do you take this man to be your husband?" and she answers, "I do" - do you take her seriously? Or do you just say to yourself, "She's a woman, she can't be taken at her word, she doesn't mean it, she'll change her mind tomorrow."? Or do you say something else to yourself?

Anyone?

DJ said...

@civilservant I am sure when she says I do she means it, and when you act BETA for 7 years she means it when she says I don't in divorce court. Women are dynamic. Ask one if she wants more kids during labor pains and then an hour later when all has been forgotten. If women were not dynamic the human race would have ended a long time ago.

Learn how to be an alpha man, and you won't have to worry about the strength of a contract, because she will follow to hell and back keeping you beer ice cold for you.

civilServant said...

So near as I can figure what you are saying is, my question is irrelevant. Just learn how to manipulate her.

Does a woman saying "I do" mean anything to you? Or is it nothing more than the sound of a bleating sheep?

Anyone else?

jay c said...

CS, your answer has been given multiple times. See it or not. Your choice.

civilServant said...

I have yet to see anyone say, "Yes, I take her vow seriously, her word means something", or "No, I don't take her vow seriously, her word means nothing." So yes, I do see your answer, though you won't admit what that answer is.

Anonymous said...

"So when a woman is asked "Do you take this man to be your husband?" and she answers, "I do" - do you take her seriously?"


Well, judging by divorce rates here in the US, a lot of men probably shouldn't.

civilServant said...

Yes, given the state of marriage today, they probably shouldn't.

Should the women take the men seriously?

DJ said...

@CS Droves of men who do not attend church are not giving woman an opportunity to take them seriously, they are simply refusing to marry. If you believe the statistics.

Is it manipulation when a father leads his son or daughter in the correct path by acting like a man? If so, it is also manipulation to lead your helpmate.

Jay c is correct, you won't accept the answer as given. Game is like any other tool it can be used to build or destroy.

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