I'm arguing with someone. One of the points of contention is that he believes Trump is not an Alpha, because "he whines".It is absolutely false to say that Alphas never whine or complain. In fact, Alphas will whine and complain vociferously any time they feel they are not being appropriately respected if they are not in a position to use intimidation or force.
Apparently, according to him, any sort of complaining about your circumstances is whining.
Barring what exactly qualifies as complaining and not instead unpassionate indication, is it correct that Alphas never whine or complain?
As to whether Trump is an Alpha or not, that should be obvious given that he is a) married to a beautiful woman, and more importantly, b) a beautiful woman who still tweets pictures of herself in swimsuits to him.
As it happens, I met Donald Trump back in 1988. He is without question an Alpha, although he was not the MegaAlpha, most important man in the room that he is now. At the time, Henry Kissinger was the big man to whom all the women were flocking.
Power trumps both fame and money.
49 comments:
I wonder if he'd still be seen as the most powerful in the room now, paired with Kissinger.
Vox do you believe it is possible for the Alpha to interchange with the Sigma?
As an example. Awhile back over at your Vox Popoli site this question was posed:
"OT but Trump's camp says he's skipping the debate. Is that an alpha or sigma move?"
My response to this was:
Total Sigma move. No concern for his status among the group (GOP). Willing to go it alone. Trump's telling them he won't play their game and he doesn't have to play by their rules. He will win anyway.
No that isn't a "Sigma" move. The Sigma would skip the debate because he forgot it was Tuesday, and he had another thing anyway (probably involving twins, rubber tubing and a shock collar.)
Trump's was an Alpha move designed to show that he was more powerful than the debate. And he was.
The same action, completely different motives. It is the same reason why if Marco Rubio had done the same thing, people wouldn't call it "Alpha" they'd call it petulant. If Jeb Bush had done it, it wouldn't be called "Alpha" or "Sigma" but "Oh, yeah. Bush hasn't quit yet!"
"Power trumps both fame and money."
Not trying to piss you off, but fame and money are both forms of power, if you accept the fact that power is the ability to manifest change, or prevent change, according to the will. Fame can do either, and money even faster.
"No that isn't a "Sigma" move. The Sigma would skip the debate because he forgot it was Tuesday, and he had another thing anyway (probably involving twins, rubber tubing and a shock collar.)
Trump's was an Alpha move designed to show that he was more powerful than the debate. And he was."
I fully understand that the Sigma wouldn't be running in the first place. But the move itself still strikes me as Sigma.
In a different thread not related to the question. Nate asserted his move would be to go to the debate anyway and basically tear Kelly and the Muslim chick a new asshole.
So is the alpha move really a stick to the program and fight it out scenario? I tend to believe it is.
Trump has another interesting trait that could possibly be defined as Sigma. Showing up to the party with the hot (foreign) chick nobody has seen.
Anyway I just see some crossover appeal here between the two and wanted to get the expert opinion on if there is ever any interchanging between them?
@ Zorro,
Fame by itself is not power.
Fame: the condition of being known or recognized by many people.
Power: a person or organization that has a lot of control and influence over other people or organizations.
Influence: the power to change or affect someone or something : the power to cause changes without directly forcing them to happen.
Ask yourself this question, "Can I be famous, and yet have no influence?" The answer is yes. Ask a political prisoner locked away in the bowels of the earth, or ask Ron Paul if he could change anything that Congress or the President did. Though he was well known, he had no power to change the system, no matter how hard he tried.
There is one point in the bible when Jesus goes into a place and could perform no works because of the lack of faith in the people there. Here you had the Son of God who had all kinds of fame, and all kinds of power....yet, he could do nothing there. His fame meant nothing, and due to their lack of faith, He had no power.
It was more of a Sigma move than an Alpha one, but that doesn't make Trump a Sigma. It means he is a good tactician. Just because your nature inclines you one way or another doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.
@sigbouncer
But the move itself still strikes me as Sigma.
Like what Daniel said, motive is the biggest factor. A Sigma would skip the debate because he doesn't care. An Alpha would skip the debate because he cares.
Trump is definitely an Alpha, but he is a whiner like no other. It's funny that Trump calls another candidate "liar" without acknowledging the irony. While I will vote for him if he wins the nomination, I won't until then.
Trump skipped the Iowa debate and he said that probably contributing to his loss. He also didn't have a good ground game in Iowa. I would hope he is being introspective in saying so, but soon afterwards, his tactics got worse and he is just blustering away as if we don't notice how much he expects us to be idiots. Shouting does not make what he says to be the truth.
An Alpha just doesn't pay the penalty for being wrong.
"It was more of a Sigma move than an Alpha one, but that doesn't make Trump a Sigma. It means he is a good tactician. Just because your nature inclines you one way or another doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do."
Thanks Vox. I appreciate the breakdown and response.
Interesting question. I have now read and listened to more interviews with Donald Trump than I was ever planning to in my life.
He is unquestionably quite high on all legs of the Dark Triad. It's obviously all there Machiavellianism, Narcissim and the lack of empathy. Combine these traits with being a billionaire and of course he is peeling women off of himself.
Alpha doesn't automatically confer acceptability. Warren Beatty was by all account a very Alpha Male. He is, and has always been a flaming liberal, supporting the very policies which have undermined manhood across the West.
Conflating Alpha with "conservative" is a huge, huge mistake.
And the reason Alpha's whine is that they are not used to people fighting back. They tend to win by the force of their personality, and really struggle when that doesn't work for them with men the same way it works for them with women.
Finally, whining and complaining, if it continues, will turn the women off eventually.
When a woman rings up to say this on live television... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP-ryuJn4FE
www.jebbush.com
Someone who isn't alpha doesn't do something like that.
^ That cracked me up too.
Was that actually Trump though, or just a randomer trolling on his behalf?
Trump didn't do the jebbush.com thing. That domain was/is owned by someone from Florida who doesn't like him, and was opened over a decade ago.
@Scott6584
And the reason Alpha's whine is that they are not used to people fighting back. They tend to win by the force of their personality, and really struggle when that doesn't work for them with men the same way it works for them with women.
Finally, whining and complaining, if it continues, will turn the women off eventually.
Makes sense. It's very doubtful an Alpha would do nothing *but* whine however -- if he did, he's pretty much by definition not an Alpha anymore because he's not attracting women.
I play pickup basketball with an Alpha, and I can confirm that he complains plenty. Not as much as the Gammas (or with an annoying whiny voice), but he calls fouls just as often.
VD: It is absolutely false to say that Alphas never whine or complain. In fact, Alphas will whine and complain vociferously any time they feel they are not being appropriately respected if they are not in a position to use intimidation or force.
I'm the person BT has been arguing this topic with via email. The exchange began over this rant I posted over in a thread on VP.
"I love the idiots who've been talking all this time about how Alpha Trump is, or how he doesn't play around. He's a whiny bitch, every single debate thus far he has whines about how "unfair" people are, or how the aren't being very nice. What a bitch! Here's a tip, he's from New York, in case you're not sure if you met anyone from NY, here's how to tell. People from NY can't help but begin every sentence with the same three words... "I'm form New York". It's practically pathological. You know what comes from NY? Actresses and actors, the degree of separation is between them is thinner then than a crack shores waistline. NY'ers favorite act is playing tough. If you believe Trumps a tough guy, you probably also believe Cernovich is a tough guy, and Rousey had a shot at beating tank Abbott."
I dont really know what "alpha" is, but I have my own presumption of what it means, which are apparently innacurate. I thought the alpha male was supposed to be the quintessential picture of what a man should be, so it is beyond me how someone who whines or complains, is a sore loser, or uses transparent weasel words and manipulation, could be Alpha. again, perhaps Im wrong about the alpha being the "quintessential male"?
I thought the alpha male was supposed to be the quintessential picture of what a man should be
This is the most common misconception of people unfamiliar with Game and Game classification.
An Alpha is someone who attracts women. Period, nothing more or less. A woman's attraction involves social status, but it's a relative social status, and the inclusion of social status is why people seem to think that to be Alpha means der Ubermensch.
I'm guessing the common human misconception of authority = better person often has a part to play in that.
No, a generic Badboy McBanddrummer is an Alpha even though he snorts coke and is a generally overall terrible human being.
Trump is an Alpha, no question. For example look at the body language of the other ones in a room when Trump enters. That reaction you only get when an alpha enters.
http://freedompowerandwealth.com
ok, so this whole Alpha thing revolves around "Game", and getting girls?
well, shit anyone can be a alpha by that definition.
this guy is an alpha? he can get girls. hot ones too, he cant get a job, but thats ok, his hot stripper GF will pay for everything.
http://i0.wp.com/www.ambrosekane.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Dumb-Wiggers-2.jpg
I thought the alpha male was supposed to be the quintessential picture of what a man should be, so it is beyond me how someone who whines or complains, is a sore loser, or uses transparent weasel words and manipulation, could be Alpha. again, perhaps Im wrong about the alpha being the "quintessential male"?
Yes, you're absolutely wrong. Alpha has to do with rank in the socio-sexual hierarchy.
this guy is an alpha? he can get girls. hot ones too, he cant get a job, but thats ok, his hot stripper GF will pay for everything.
Yes. Obviously he is of high rank, as he doesn't even need a job to get girls. In fact, I can tell that you are almost surely a Delta, as you value competence and respectability.
However, high alphas appeal to both men and women. Women want them and men want to follow them.
I found a defintion at urban dict. it was the wrong one I guess, this is the one from AG.
Delta: The normal guy. Deltas are the great majority of men. They can't attract the most attractive women, so they usually aim for the second-tier women with very limited success, and stubbornly resist paying attention to all of the third-tier women who are comfortably in their league. This is ironic, because deltas would almost always be happier with their closest female equivalents. When a delta does manage to land a second-tier woman, he is constantly afraid that she will lose interest in him and will, not infrequently, drive her into the very loss of interest he fears by his non-stop dancing of attendance upon her. In a social setting, the deltas are the men clustered together in groups, each of them making an occasional foray towards various small gaggles of women before beating a hasty retreat when direct eye contact and engaged responses are not forthcoming. Deltas tend to put the female sex on pedestals and have overly optimistic expectations of them; if a man rhapsodizes about his better half or is an inveterate White Knight, he is almost certainly a delta. Deltas like women, but find them mysterious, confusing, and are sometimes secretly a little afraid of them.
Lifetime sexual partners = 1-1.5x average
Vox, You would be most definately wrong, by that definition.
for instance, this is a author I dated for a couple years, until I dumped her.Then she took up writing.
http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Rub-Salt-The-Heartbreak/dp/0978938658
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Time-Heals-All-Swoons-by-Heather-Angelika-Dooley/289093412473
http://www.chegg.com/textbooks/he-said-he-wanted-to-die-with-me-now-i-don-t-even-have-his-phone-number-1st-edition-9780974076300-0974076309
If she is you putting your best foot forward. Then Vox is right. As she would fit in that third tier women category based on my experiences. Another indicator here is the lengths you are going to to prove that you're not delta. As those of higher rank could really care less what others opinions are of them.
Note that one can move up from delta, but only if they are honest with themselves about their socio-sexual ranking (see below).
http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html
Now, it is important to keep in mind that it serves absolutely no purpose to identify yourself in some manner that you think is "better" or higher up the hierarchy. No one cares what you think you are and your opinion about your place in the social hierarchy is probably the opinion that matters least. There is no good or bad here, there is only what happens to be observable in social interaction. Consider: alphas seemingly rule the roost and yet they live in a world of constant conflict and status testing. Sigmas usually acquired their outsider status the hard way; one seldom becomes immune to the social hierarchy by virtue of mass popularity in one's childhood. Betas... okay, betas actually have it pretty good. But the important thing to keep in mind is that you can't improve your chances of success in the social game if you begin by attempting to deceive yourself as to where you stand vis-a-vis everyone else around you.
As far as Dark Triad and lack of empathy goes, that doesn't go too well with Trump's episode paying off the mortgage of someone who helped him out of an automobile jam. Nor does it explain the New York skating rink episode, or his attempted involvement in the UN building reconfigure rookery (don't know how that one ended out).
sigbouncer: Another indicator here is the lengths you are going to to prove that you're not delta.
I am simply presenting evidence. I dont put women on a pedestal, for 20 years I put them on a stage naked and charged them to do it. That job came with other benefits, sometimes two benefits at the same time lol.
Trump does something that strikes me as almost feminine. He likes to give people fake compliments. For instance, a man at one of his rallies last summer was telling him how much second-rate steel comes from China. Trump grew impatient with him, and even insinuated that he was a kook. But then a few seconds later, Trump said "Isn't he wonderful folks?" (or something to that effect, I'm paraphrasing). It reminds me of women telling each other that they "look pretty."
Vox, You would be most definately wrong, by that definition.
Vox wrote that definition you big goof. Click the top link on the right sidebar.
I am simply presenting evidence.
And you've proved that you don't understand how a trait cluster works.
Hypothetical situation: I have a survey response that says the respondent is a 35-year-old male with bad credit who watches the NBA religiously. Now, he's not necessarily black, but that's the way to bet.
For note, there are also such things as "high" and "low" of each rank. The hierarchy rankings as written essentially assume the average.
No one fits solely and squarely within one rank, but will very often have habits or traits which are of a lower or higher rank. Of course, such habits or traits when witnessed by a woman will be either more or less attractive.
It does not disprove the average however.
VD: Yes, you're absolutely wrong. Alpha has to do with rank in the socio-sexual hierarchy.
Ok, that was previously not my understanding, now I see where your coming from.
this guy is an alpha? he can get girls. hot ones too, he cant get a job, but thats ok, his hot stripper GF will pay for everything.
Yes. Obviously he is of high rank, as he doesn't even need a job to get girls.
No, hes not high rank according to your scale because...
This guy has NO game whatsoever.I've seen these guys again and again at my clubs, we called them stripper pimps (sarcastically). This skinny little dude is scared, he's insecure as shit. He dresses like a thug and tries to act the part, in the hopes people wont kick his ass, and girls will fall for it.He gets his ass kicked regularly by the guys he wants desperately to be like...usually in front of the stripper, because hes trying to show how down he is with the "homeboys", how legit his pimp status is, and those real thugs told him to "haul yo bitch ass outta here". So, not wanting to lose face in front of the hoodrat, or because he think hes being "tried", and maybe a 40 or two of Old English have given him wings...he bows up, and gets knocked out.
He gets hot strippers not because hes an alpha, but because those hot strippers are equally insecure. They have daddy issues, maybe a game or two of "good touch/bad touch" with their 2nd stepdad. They validate themselves sexually, they are nothing but tricks and hood rats to the guys they really want. The skinny wigger, is the closest thing to the "true playa' they'll ever get, and the only person desperate enough for a girl they will have a relationship with them. Atleast they can ride in their broke ass Honda Civic and tell each other how "f;y" they are.
In fact, I can tell that you are almost surely a Delta, as you value competence and respectability.
I value competence in specific areas, where specific jobs need to get done.
I dont care about a persons respectability, I only care that they respect me, for their own good.
Aeoli Pera: Vox wrote that definition you big goof. Click the top link on the right sidebar.
doesnt matter if C.S. Lewis wrote it, it doesnt apply because the premise for that assertion seems to be that I say the wigger kid is not alpha because he doesnt have a job or hes funny looking. My point is he gets those girls not because he's an alpha, but because those girls are batshit crazy, insecure and anyone can have them for the low price of a comment like "That ass though".
Look, I was completely oblivious to this sociosexual heirarchy thing, I heard the term alpha plenty of times, but didnt really know how it applied. I havent struggled in social or sexual situations since 4th and 8th grade respectively.
Its simply not something that would even have occured to me as an issue.
"He gets hot strippers not because hes an alpha, but because those hot strippers are equally insecure. They have daddy issues, maybe a game or two of "good touch/bad touch" with their 2nd stepdad. They validate themselves sexually, they are nothing but tricks and hood rats to the guys they really want. The skinny wigger, is the closest thing to the "true playa' they'll ever get, and the only person desperate enough for a girl they will have a relationship with them."
So what does this say about you having sex with them?
Why would you boast and or cite "evidence" about having sex with them here, considering your now stated negative opinion of their socio-sexual ranking?
"for 20 years I put them on a stage naked and charged them to do it. That job came with other benefits, sometimes two benefits at the same time lol."
Henry Kissenger an alpha? He is more of a functional psychopath. Women that flock to such men should be avoided.
Sigbouncer: So what does this say about you having sex with them?
Don't be ridiculous, that doesn't apply to all of them, just the percentage "that guy" gets.
"This guy has NO game whatsoever.I've seen these guys again and again at my clubs, we called them stripper pimps"
The picture you paint is that these "no game' guys are very common at your clubs. It doesn't give one the impression of a higher end club with high end strippers. Or even a college town strip club with a few hot young college girls stripping.
But if you say you're banging high end strippers and enjoying life. Then more power to you if that's your aspiration. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Yeah, your just being combative for the hell of it now. Those guys are common at every club nationwide. I ran clubs from Miami, Tampa, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm, and Jacksonville, Fl.
I retired 8 years ago, converted to Christianity, got married and had kids.
No, but I am familiar with higher end clubs with dress codes that guys like that couldn't even sniff of from outside of their parking lot.
So you're married and as your evidence of not being delta... You have provided a picture of a tatted up tier 3 woman that you "dumped" and the fact that you've had threesomes with unseen "hot" strippers at a club you run.
Yeah, you're still a delta.
No, but I am familiar with higher end clubs with dress codes that guys like that couldn't even sniff of from outside of their parking lot.
No, your not, even guys like that can dress up to get in a club. Besides, who said they met the stripper in the club, they encourage the girls to become a stripper, hence the name stripper pimp. We hire girls cause they are hot, we dont run background checks and invite them to bring their BF so we can see hes not an asshat.
So you're married and as your evidence of not being delta.
well, since the definition of a Delta said they tended to put women on a pedestal, were attentive, and often white knights, I was demonstrating that my behavior towards women was self gratifying by nature, and not overly kind.
.. You have provided a picture of a tatted up tier 3 woman that you "dumped"
well the tattoos were well after me, as far as her being tier 3, I looked up Voxs categorization. Shes 42 now, she was solidly in the Barbie category from 20-24 when we lived together. she had only 1 sexual partner before me,she broke it off after she was introduced to me.
and the fact that you've had threesomes with unseen "hot" strippers at a club you run.
Look, you really are a tool of the first order. It seems odd that by your standards, you can assert whatever you like about me without grounds, but any rebuttal by me, you disquallify because ..."your special".
Yeah, you're still a delta.
I am a Beta at worst, You on the other hand, have appeared to be a retard on both here on this thread, and on VP in many threads.
just stop kid, your to small to ride this ride.
"As those of higher rank could really care less what others opinions are of them"
I knew I could count on an overly lengthy ad hominem laden response from you arguing why you're not a delta. Point proven.
Oh and there's no way that eyebrowless example you used was ever a "barbie". Except in the eyes of a delta who pedestalizes women...
As those of higher rank could really care less what others opinions are of them"
I don't care what You think of me, I'm defending my statements.
theres nothing wrong with Ad hominem, as long as its not fallacious...what point have you proven?
I knew I could count on an overly lengthy ad hominem laden response from you arguing why you're not a delta. Point proven.
Oh and there's no way that eyebrowless example you used was ever a "barbie". Except in the eyes of a delta who pedestalizes women.
can you prove that the gilr in question was not a Barbie at 20 yrs of age?
how logical is it to say that someone who ran strip clubs for 20 years places women on a pedestal, or white knights for women? that's just silly.
Post a Comment
NO ANONYMOUS COMMENTS.