Monday, August 1, 2016

The dead end of MGTOW

Corey Savage addresses the unproductive nature of MGTOW at Return of Kings:
MGTOW may have started with the right intent of defying the gynocentric system that exploits men, but it has quickly turned into a congregation of young men who come together to validate each other’s bitterness and frustration. Instead of doing anything to improve their lives, the majority of MGTOW feel the need to attack anyone who suggests self-improvement because it reminds them of their own lack of effort (just note how often they come to this site to spew their hatred instead of staying in their own sphere).

And for all the cries about society “shaming” them, the members of the MGTOW are the most vitriolic group today (along with the feminists) that constantly shames men for sharing tips on improving their lives. I can somewhat accept bitchy behavior from feminists as they’re women, but to watch these “men” throw a hissy fit over articles on attracting women or becoming a better man (none of which they were forced to read) is both hilarious and cringeworthy at the same time.

Ask yourself: what compels a man who has supposedly “gone his own way” to come to a site they claim to hate, read an article on attracting women which they clearly don’t care for, then leave a comment to “shame” and attack other men? Simple: jealously and insecurity.

MGTOW also claim that their group isn’t about rejecting sex altogether, but as soon as another man makes even the slightest effort to have a relationship with a woman, they go apeshit about how he is a “slave to pussy” or a “PUA loser” (for some reason, they think anyone who has sex with a woman is automatically a “PUA.” I’m sure only a very small number of writers and readers of ROK are actual PUA’s).

Many of these men have a twisted worldview where all relationship between men and women are either slavery through marriage or a charade by men dressed like clowns who are desperate for sex. Some even develop more bizarre conspiracy theories where every word or action of another male group is an effort to force marriage or sell books on pick-up. Their mind is so warped that simply having a different perspective on man and society gets interpreted as advocating hatred or violence against the entire male population “just to get laid.”

To escape this men-rejecting-women-not-being-rejected-by-them club, you must recognize that the MGTOW inseminates damaging ideas about life and the world and poisons the soul with negativity. Just as feminism grew beyond from a movement equality, MGTOW has grown beyond its original purpose.
Translation: what started with Omegas has grown to include Gammas, and was then warped by the latter in their attempt to turn it into a movement that can rival the social hierarchy.

There is nothing wrong, indeed, there is much to be admired about the Benedict Option. But if you're going to transform yourself into a secular variant of a monk for reasons of principle, you shouldn't behave like a nasty-minded nun sent to a convent for bedding the stableboy.

And Savage makes a good point. If you're simply going your own way, then you should stop trying to interfere with everyone else's.


dc.sunsets said...

Both "game" and MGTOW look to me like attempts to turn a bug in basic women's programming into a feature.

People who harbor only "base model" behavioral programs are by definition The Masses and are thus uninteresting to me.

IrishFarmer said...

There's still MGTOW?

Booch Paradise said...

You say that like it's a bad thing. Bug or feature, its there. Why wouldn't you want to learn the optimal way to interact with reality?

Mr.MantraMan said...

Is Delta Man's series germane?

dc.sunsets said...

Booch, I don't speak to or for those who make up the masses. I (and my sons) searched the masses haystack to find girls whose (metaphorical) programming included upgrades, including upgrades that allowed user-installed customization.

So much of Game seems committed to defining winning as the cumulative number of SMV women one has screwed. To me, the goal (for a non-masses man) is to not waste irreplaceable years of life dallying with throwbacks and learning to quickly, if not intuitively move past the haystack while finding the needle (before someone else does.)

I married early. I started my family early. I already have grandchildren in my mid-50's. I have a reasonable hope to live to see great grandchildren.

All of this depends on time that cannot be acquired at any price.

For my granddaughters my hope is that they will cultivate sweet dispositions, grace, modesty, domestic skills, a love of children and a grasp that lifelong happiness is most likely to be found in partnership with a masculine, kind, capable & self-controlled man who is young enough to go the distance.

No, me and mine are not of the masses. Might as well be a different species.

Anonymous said...

MGTOWs are leftists. Who else would stamp their little feet and whine about how unfair the world is? They're still trapped in a very, shall we say, blue-pill mindset, obsessed with fairness and equality. The only difference between them and feminists is who they believe the victim is.

Shimshon said...


"So much of Game seems committed to defining winning as the cumulative number of SMV women one has screwed."

Project much? Vox defines it that way?

By need you presumably you mean a genuine NAWALT woman? There are no needles. That kind of language is total pedestalization.

Regarding your first comment, I couldn't disagree more. Game is not so trivial as you suppose.

Unknown said...

You probably know this already, Vox, but the true revolution will come only when Deltas wake up to the realities exposed by game theory. Omegas and Gammas are irrelevant.

Cash Gorman said...

The attempt to put all MGTOW into one basket is bullshit, just as it is to put all PUA's in one...It's just another divide and conquer routine that suckers in everyone all the time. The manosphere would be better off to acknowledge these other groups are all men dealing with the current shit sandwich in their own way. In many cases men may be members of all these different groups over time, eg, a newly divorced man could go MGTOW for a while, then move on to PUA after dealing with the pain, then primairily go for self-improvement for it's own sake rather than for just chasing tail...

Anchorman said...

MGTOW is a likely first-stop for men who finally catch on to what’s going on. I don’t think it stops at Omegas or Gammas. Deltas who experience the betrayal when they can separate reality from the Narrative can feel a justified, “I’m taking my toys and going home – you need me far more than I need you.”

That said, it’s how long men stay in MGTOW that probably separates the groups. The Delta still has a lot ingrained and, very likely, may have children to raise. They still know the good and value of marriage and want their children to not rule it out, just because he was hit by a claymore mine called betrayal (in all forms).

The Omegas and Gammas may feel more at home at permanent MGTOW members because it suits their nature (non-social or perpetually aggrieved). Further, this gives them a low-socio-cost group to attain their own pecking order – i.e. king of the dorks, so to speak.

Nara said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alphaeus said...

"There's still MGTOW?"

There was MGTOW before it had a name. And there will be MGTOW long after the current name is long forgotten. What is special about our position in the space-time continuum is that the laws make what is called MGTOW a general imperative for the great mass of men. I agree that a man's focus should be on self-improvement, but for himself, and not to prepare himself to be enslaved by the system. Women are the same as they ever was, it is the legal and social and political and religious systems that have changed the deal and made it a shit sandwich for any man with a brain. As opposed to the history of the past and the future, where the female character without the amplification of corrupt and totalitarian society was and perhaps will be the major problem to deal with.

Anchorman said...

Improvement for himself, but not to be enslaved by the system.

I understand what you’re saying ("Benedict option," as VD noted).

How many are actually doing it and how many are talking the talk, but really just want a place to vent – for years? What share of the MGTOW audience make it to the Benedict Option and how many have simply checked out?

Booch Paradise said...

Sounds like you've did well in choosing, and are doing God's work in adding heavily to the next generations. But I think you've confused women of high virtue who are able to resist that part of their nature as not having that part of their nature at all. It's the same way something like pride effects us all. There are some very humble people who don't really show it much, but the only ones that may be completely unaffected are people with mental issues.

MichaelJMaier said...

Real MGTOWs wouldn't have the need to tell everyone. They're as annoying as the bull dykes. Maybe moreso since I don't frequent bull dyke locales on the intertubes.

Alphaeus said...

Most of the MGTOW's trapped in a loser mentality need positive encouragement and not more browbeating about manning up and getting with a woman when they don't feel confident or comfortable going after or being with a woman. It's like Gary put it on the syndicated tv show "Gary Unmarried," "Of course my son should fear women: they pretend to like you and then they take all your stuff!"

Alphaeus said...

Some MGTOW's are into vocal misogyny. I was MGTOW before it had a name or was a thing. I'm thinking a lot of MGOTW's don't even know there is a MGTOW "community." Some MGTOW's are obviously selling MGTOW, but in my experience most MGTOW's I've run in to that talk about it are just enjoying an opportunity to discuss something that they have heretofore been unable to even allude to in times past. And, what is wrong with warning guys that they should consult with a competent attorney before they get mixed up with women or a woman?

Anonymous said...

I understand what you’re saying ("Benedict option," as VD noted)

I don't regard it as the Benedictine Option (which is withdrawal from the world)

There is a MGTOW/Game synthesis that goes roughly like this: things that game (and many MGTOW) blogs advocate (self-improvement, having a mission, disregarding what women say, improving ones ability to understand and communicate with other people) are all good, and men, to be fully men, should pursue them for their own sake. However, one must be realistic about the current state of affairs, with women able to sleep far above their marriage number, which mixes with hypergamy with disastrous effect (alpha-widowhood) for the vast delta majority. A game blog telling deltas that they can all become pussy-slaying alphas is lying to the majority of them (not all, but most.) A MGTOW blog advocating defeatism and anger is not lying to deltas, but is not helping them either.

So the middle way: there is a sexual hierarchy in which you are situated. Be honest with yourself about that. Male excellence should be pursued for its own sake. For many men, this pursuit will not pay off in sexual success anywhere near the effort put into it, which is why one shouldn't go into it with that expectation. Resist the male temptation to AMOG or to suicide-by-cynicism, which are dictated by the divergent male (many) and female (best) sexual strategies found in high-resource/low-danger environments.

Jeff aka Orville said...

Strange timing...I was just looking at some link backs to an article I wrote on my blog that was generally about how to be a man, and the one statement I had about women was in the context of risk taking, i.e. approach women who are two grades above what you perceive yourself to be. While mostly good feedback, there were several like below...

This appears good, but this line does make me wonder:
If you are a six in appearance, approach a girl who is an eight.
Approaching females, no matter your looks, will always be dangerous. All she has to do is claim you did something, and there goes your job, money, house, car, etc.
Video games are safer than females.

and this...

Little boys are risk takers. Fearless out of ignorance and not knowing their limits. When this energy is channeled properly under the supervision of great men, civilization truly prospers.

I'll have nothing but intense loathing for modern "women" until they stop trying to grow a penis and learn how to be part of something bigger than themselves. Every modern "womens" issue is about the EGO.

Muh abortion,
muh equal pay,
muh corporate board vagina representation,
muh birthcontrol,
muh alimony,
muh custody
muh "glass ceiling"

Fucking worthless disgusting cunts.

The hatred is palpable.

Jeff aka Orville said...

That was from MGTOW HQ, and what they were commenting on was What does it mean to be a man

MycroftJones said...

I suspect that a lot of the vocal MGTOW are part of the online "paid trolls" who are sent to disrupt any threat to the mainstream narrative. Hawaiian Libertarian had a good writeup about it this week:

dc.sunsets said...

Booch, in my experience we all have the basic programming, warts and all. My other favored metaphor is two-mindedness, where my impulsive mind requires constant vigilance from my rational mind lest bad things happen.

Far from the pedestalization Shimshon assumes, my view is simply that not all women are alike; some are actually better (in nature, grace, honesty, skill...e.g. cooking, etc.) and of those, some actually realize that a good man brings something necessary to her she seeks such a man. Almost invariably she will come from an intact, usually halfway functional family (though the function may be window dressing.)

What my sons & I did, mostly subconsciously, was simply stratify the available girls and ignore the throwbacks (including SMV 6-8 girls who basically threw themselves at us), then spend enough time with the rest to discard the better actresses.

The problem facing men is that 99.99999% of girls, even those with great natural potential, lack the necessary guidance to protect their own value. After enough time, most will still have put too much bad data into their own long term memory. Too many notches on the bedpost.

As usual, for the person who wishes to have a better than average life, timing, luck and clear purpose seem to matter greatly.

We make our girls better, but only if they see the benefit. Mass-minded feminism teaches girls they don't need a good man. They are thus toxic and cannot be reformed. If they let us bring our masculine benefits to them, then they earn our willingness to let them help us be better men. This is my view, based on 34 years of happy, productive marriage. Others' mileage may vary, and I've watched my fair share of acquaintances' marriages crash & burn, leaving wrecked lives in their wake.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Losers. Avoid them.

deti said...

Actually I'm not sure that MGTOW really was omegas. From the blogs I read as far back as the late 2000s and early 2010s, it was just guys who decided that conventional LTRs and marriage weren't for them. Some men had occasional relationships with women. Some swore off women entirely. They were just men who decided to live life completely on their own terms. Most of the time, life "on their terms" precluded the compromise required for LTR or marriage. They still had relationships with women but they invariably ended if it got to "so where is this relationship going" or if she wanted more than an STR or his sexual exclusivity.

I agree that now, MGTOW has been coopted by incels and guys who can't or won't do the work to improve; and guys who tried to improve but still can't get sex. Now it's mostly men who want sex/relationships and cant get them; not men who don't want sex or relationships and aren't seeking them. And it's movement guys too -- before it wasn't a movement. Now these incels/omegas think they're agitating for social change.

MGTOW is not now what it once was.

Tarrou said...

The weakness of MGTOW is as described. Too much focus on what sent them there, not enough on where they want to go.

The PUA side.......well, in a weird way, it's too female-focused. A happy sex life is a great goal, however you want to get there, but it's only one part of a life. It's a skill I think men should be taught, but so is boxing. At the extreme end, it can feel like the metric by which all success is measured is female.

Similar to feminists who measure success of women by male metrics of career, money, etc., the PUAs can wind up measuring success as a man by how many women he fucks.

Both groups have something to offer. Just don't go all the way down the rabbit hole.

Alphaeus said...

MGTOW's often use the word "every" when they really should use the Accounting term of art, "substantially all," which allows for the outlying rare exceptions.

Alphaeus said...

"The problem facing men is that 99.99999% of girls, even those with great natural potential, lack the necessary guidance to protect their own value." Like I said, "substantially all." Just like Spock with a beard in his parallel Imperious Federation universe, a man must have the power. Men stripped of their power are no match for the fully empowered woman who has the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marine Corps, the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, the Marshall Service, the Secret Service, the Forest Service, Alcoholic Beverage Control, Animal Control, state police, local police, and all the rest, to back her up. It's not that I'm afraid of women per se, it's just that I'm not stupid enough to bash my tender sensitive skull against a brick wall.

Unknown said...

Excellent article. I couldn't agree more.

Aeoli Pera said...

Lesson: you can't have a real political movement without women because you can't have a tribe without reproduction.

Aeoli Pera said...

Actually I'm not sure that MGTOW really was omegas. From the blogs I read as far back as the late 2000s and early 2010s, it was just guys who decided that conventional LTRs and marriage weren't for them.

Divorce-rape made many Omegas out of Delta cloth.

Gulo Gulo said...

Its all about mindset. A guy with weak confidence, who chooses to harbor grudges and decides that the world is a scarce place - will readily embrace MGTOW.
If however he works on improving himself and his way of thinking he will eventually look at MGTOW for what it is - a losers club.
This is written through the lens of personal experience

Blue88 said...

If you don't make babies, then what is it all about. MGTOW is a dead end. My God, you don't make babies, then what is it all about? Said it twice cause, You have to make babies! You just have to. I don't understand this shit

Anonymous said...

A man of any SSR CAN be divorce raped by a woman...all the way up to the random alpha whose wife met a bigger alpha. I suspect most of the MGTOW other than gamma and omega don't advertise it, or lecture. They just do. The apparent rift between MGTOW and PUA never seemed logical to me because they are both reactions to observable truth.

Aeoli Pera said...

A school of fish,
A pride of lions,
A handful of MGToWs.

You're welcome :-).

Unknown said...


Gary Unmarried was not syndicated (it was on CBS) but the irony of your comment is that its star Jay Mohr recently filed for divorce from his second wife Nikki Cox.

Mr.MantraMan said...

Perhaps if the MGs could maintain a decent frame instead of wandering down whiny lane and proud of it, state the obvious and then move on, don't engage in petty disputes.

Anchorman said...

I think deti makes a very good observation.

There is a difference between men who go MGTOW and men who see it as a movement. There may also be a personality/socio-sexual difference between the groups, as well.

The movement MGTOWs are likely in it because they want some form of acknowledgement or leadership role that they can’t achieve in the world. They want it to be a movement, so they can be recognized as a “leader” of the movement, if it grows. It all stays on the internet, of course.

The non-movement MGTOW could be there after divorce rape or some other circumstance. I have a brother who wasn’t incel, but wasn’t really interested in marriage/kids. Truth is, he doesn’t have a good mindset to raise kids. Maybe that would’ve changed if he had them, but I doubt it. He still works, does well, and helps my parents maintain their house as they get older, but he is probably a MGTOW who never heard of the expression. He saw the divorce rape of friends, saw women cheat, men cheat, and never pursued the LTRs.

Alphaeus said...

Mountain Man, most MGTOW do not look at it as any sort of club. Most MGTOW are that way because they made a very personal decision regarding how they wanted to live their life. Most MGTOW understand that the problem is not women, per se, because women are the same selfish self centered childish creatures they have always been. What has changed and what is different is the law, pure and simple. The law has stripped men of the rights and powers that they need in order to deal properly with women. Some women are mature enough to handler their new legal power. The vast majority of women are too bat excrement crazy to be trusted by a man nowadays. They just have too damned much power to destroy.

Alphaeus said...

Blue88, can you see that the liberals believe in negative population growth and that's why they promoted the changes in the law that they did? Now that men get screwed so easily at a woman's whim, no man with a functioning brain will subject himself to that risk, and that has the inevitable result of reducing births and family formations. It's actually all working perfectly according to the evil liberal plan. If you want intelligent men to form families and get married again, you must first destroy the power of liberalism. Then men with brains will be willing to take the risks of family once again.

Alphaeus said...

Jackie De Lister, thank you for your correction. I think I only saw Gary Unmarried in reruns so that's why I erred. Nevertheless Gary's point is still moot: Women pretend to like men and then take all their stuff with the help of the law and the courts and the police and the fire department.

Alphaeus said...

Mr Mantra Man, I agree about the whiny tone and the petty disputes. But I honestly believe that a lot of that is due to the times we live in and the way people in general are now and is not a problem peculiar only to MGTOW's. I think the study of MGTOW principles actually helps a man to get past his petty whining better than pretending that all is normal and well in society and with sexual relationships.

Luke said...

Sigh. Once again, no one will mention the way to cut the Gordian knot. That is
unmarried egg donor/gestational surrogacy, where no woman EVER is allowed to get her name on the BC or adopt them (and
He never marries, at least until the last kid hits 18).


Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Wow Unknown that's a recipe for a stable society.

Unknown said...

The attempt to put all MGTOW into one basket is bullshit, just as it is to put all PUA's in one...It's just another divide and conquer routine that suckers in everyone all the time.

The purpose of the MGTOW label is to put a bunch of related attitudes into the one basket for easy reference. Classification is the purpose of all labels. Indeed, it's the purpose of most language. If one rejects the language, one can't at the same time use it to make one's primary argument.

But I digress. It sounds like the point being made is that NAMGTOWALT. The insensibilty of this notion aside, what it proves is that the fundamental force of nature in man is to disintegrate and atomise. Everyone has a slightly different experience, and no label is going to fit precisely to two or more people.

The nature of the blogger is to organise ideas around a central conviction. He'as effectively a spin doctor that acts a bit like the weak force on bosons and fermions in particle physics that attracts charged sub-atomic particles - both negative and positive - and binds them loosely together around a nucleus. In this case it's a nucleus of conviction around which different experiences orbit. But it's only a weak force, and there are always new experiences.

MGTOW, PUA, Game, etc are temporal ideas. They're like excitable charged particles susceptible to all the weak forces around them. They have little meaning on their own, and they're not convictions. They orbit around convictions, like gammas around an HB6. They won't rock the world or anything in it on their own.

Change comes from having convictions, and there's a far stronger force at work that binds our convictions to our beings. Over this force, neither the language nor the blogger have any power, or at least they shouldn't. The blogger is just a weak gathering force for ideas. He doesn't have the power to save anyone, nor civilisation itself, even if he's under the delusion that he does.

God is the strong force. The blogosphere is the weak force. Keep the strong and weak forces in perspective, for God's sake.

Anonymous said...

You aren't really "going your own way" if you care what other people think of your going your own way.

Austin Ballast said...

I was going to say the same thing (NAMGTOWALT) Unknown.

The article is looking at the vocal MGTOWs and fits most of what I have seen. They aren't content with going their own way, they have to beat on those who don't follow their path.

Contrast that with a neighbor who is likely a MGTOW, yet has not said a single word about it when talking with my wife or I.

I would still argue we are on this earth to reproduce and to serve God rather than our own pleasures, but at least refrain from preaching idiocy to me in the name of your twisted version of the idea. I have been married almost as long as DC and have grandchildren as well. My own story is a bit more complicated, but I pursue building a heritage rather than griping about what I don't have.

My wife is not perfect, but neither am I. We continue to go forward in life so I know it is possible and no crying otherwise will convince me it is not. It takes a lot of conviction, faith and definitely some of God's blessings, but it can be done.

Go your own way if you want, but don't demand I validate your choice or follow it.

Alphaeus said...

dave1941, just because someone gives a rationale and an apologia for their MGTOW attitude doesn't mean they give a shit or a damn or a flying frigola if somebody else doesn't approve. I do agree it's funny to hear someone say something like, "I'm going my own way, if that's alright with you." Sounds kind of like, "If you leave me, can I go with you?"

Alphaeus said...

Austin Ballast, Jesus said that if we forsake wife and children for His sake we are blessed. I don't think Jesus meant that as a mandate to abandon families, but instead He meant to say that it is good for a man to seek a deeper spiritual life and that of necessity does not include family. Of course this is diametrically opposed to the post modern teaching of faux churchianity that tells us that family is everything. Well, Jesus just told us that it is not, and far from it.
Matthew 19: 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

LonestarWhacko said...

I was MGTOW way before there was a definition. I'm too old for children. I was divorced, and I could see how divorce was a suckers game. I mind my own business, and deal with women without rancor. Look at what's happening in our country. Good luck with having children. Men need to understand that they really have no rights to their children. All a woman has to do is say a few words, and you're ruined.

Some men will be fortunate, but others wont. If you take a feminist into your heart, she will destroy you.

Factory said...

I find I agree more than I disagree. To me, the Manosphere is too polarized. When watching it form, I had hopes it would be closer to teams in a league than warring nations. Apparently, others (cough *ElamEsmayWright*) saw an opportunity to prove the ultimate Rightness of their approach, which caused others (cough *RBKBarbarosssaaaetc*) to retaliate in kind.

Ego....go figure.

Alphaeus said...

Finally addressing the last line of the post, there are those who seek to "interfere" with others' lives, but merely suggesting that a wise man will seek wise counsel from a competent and experienced and empathetic attorney before he entangles himself with a woman is not what I think of as "interfering." If someone told you they were starting up a business wouldn't you suggest that they consult with attorneys and accountants and other professionals to at least cover their backside? And yeah, I know, good luck finding an empathetic attorney, I meant that part as a joke.

Unknown said...

This is just a lot of ad hominems and declarative statements. The few bytes it occupies on the Internet is a complete waste.

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