Wednesday, November 11, 2015

When higher status makes it worse

ESR adds his contribution to the theory of Game:
A man courting a woman is implicitly making a status claim: I am good enough for you – in Red Pill terminology, my SMV (sexual market value) meets or exceeds yours. Because other women use male attention to measure SMV and status, such a claim can be threatening to its target because, from a low-status male, it threatens to lower her status, especially if she accepts it.

A woman can deal with this by not merely rejecting a man she evaluates as not being worthy, but publicly insulting him for trying. “How dare you think you’re good enough for me?” is different from a simple “Not interested” because it’s a status defense.

Thus, hot chicks are systematically cruel to beta nerds. It’s a way of socially protecting the proposition that their SMV is high enough to capture a real alpha, and their status among peers.

But – and here’s my insight – it’s even worse than that.

Consider two cases. Bob is slightly lower status than Alice. Ted is much lower status than Alice. Both of them court Alice. She doesn’t think either has SMV to match hers, so her response is to reject both. But: Which one is the bigger status threat?

No, it’s not Ted. The status difference between him and Alice is quite visible to her peers; he can be easily dismissed as just nuts for pitching out of his league. Bob, on the other hand, may look plausible – and the closer to good enough he looks, the more likely it is that the status claim he makes by courting Alice will adjust her status downwards among her peers.

So it’s Bob who will get the cruel, status-defensive rejection, not Ted.
On the plus side, if a woman who is close to your league is being particularly nasty, that means you have a real shot if you up your Game. So, while it might not be fun to experience initially, it's very useful information.


Anonymous said...

It's an interesting point.

It dovetails well with the observation that, in the popularity hierarchy, the nastiest fighting is usually in the middle, particularly just below the top: the naturally most popular can afford to be nice, and the omegas don't bother to fight.

Ron said...

It just occurred to me that if a man approaches a woman who is out of his league, and he also realizes the above statement by ESR, then he is not just sending a message to the woman that his SMV equals or exceeds hers, but he is also sending a message to HIMSELF that his SMV equals or exceeds hers.

If he sends himself enough such messages, while putting in the work to make that a reality, then he will reorient himself to actually be at a higher or equal SMV value for the women he approaches.

And that would explain the "fake it till you make it" concept.

ss said...

^artful response. I agree wholeheartedly.

Anonymous said...

Exacerbated by the tendency of women to overestimate their SMV by a) not realizing the difference between a man willing to have a one night stand and a man willing to take her on as a commitment*, and b) not realizing how hard the years are on her. So Bob could still get a nuclear rejection even if he was really slightly above her SMV, because she might have been deluded by the pump-n-dump she got from Badboy Rockbanddrummer five years ago when she was 10 pounds lighter and 54.7% more fertile.

* As Charlie Sheen said, he doesn't pay hookers to have sex, he pays them to leave afterward.

Timmy3 said...

Since women are always hitting above their league, its important for a man to get prior knowledge of her dating history. If both are at the same level, it doesn't matter if she perceives him as slightly below. Not good enough. Therefore let her get hit by a lower status guy. Rub it in. Helpfully encourage her to date him. Some time later, the slightly higher status guy appear more attractive. Timing is the bigger concern.

SciVo said...

Yes, I am not the first to observe that the worst nuclear rejections come from the middle and upper-middle of SMV -- the "midvees" -- because the women at the top are used to it and also not threatened. It's the plain girl, the one who hardly ever gets approached, who will make an international issue out of a late-night "coffee" invitation in a hotel elevator.

Harambe said...

It's the same as how lower-middleclass folks are more fussy about their image than the well-off folks.

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Anonymous said...

So it’s Bob who will get the cruel, status-defensive rejection, not Ted.

That insight goes a long way toward invalidating the Whiskeyite assertion that White women hate their peer White men, to whom they are bitchy, in favor of "exciting" Blacks, to whom they are nice.


Unknown said...

One takeaway from this, then, is that if you're just out chatting up women, say for practice or breaking down approach anxiety, you might as well aim high and go for the hotties. Maybe you'll still get rejected, but they'll be nicer about it, and the view will be better in the meantime.

When I think back to the times a beautiful girl turned me down gently (which was usually the case), they're almost pleasant memories. Bittersweet might be the word. Disappointed, but happy with myself for at least trying. If you catch the eyes of other guys while you're doing it, you'll see respect or even a bit of awe. Doesn't hurt for other women to see it either.

Trust said...

Another variable is how women overrate themselves. May provide insight as to why women who cheat on their husbands are so cruel to their husbands: they mistake a higher status man's willingness to use them as a cum dumpster with their status increasing, and therefore falsely feeling even more superior to their husband.

GB said...

There's a simplified answer. For women, rejecting men simply feels good. There's a movie quote, I can't remember what it's from:

"Men get their self esteem when a woman says 'Yes,' women get their self-esteem by telling men 'No.'"

Christopher B said...


Alternatively, this does fit with that assertion. A liason with a man of another race is so far off the field that it has little bearing on her SMV in the same way an out of league approach does, while men if her own race need to be judged more critically and more forcefully rejected.

Rex Little said...

An interesting theory, and certainly plausible. Is it supported by evidence? If so, how much and what sort? Detailed, rigorous observation? Experiment?

Anonymous said...

A liason with a man of another race is so far off the field that it has little bearing on her SMV

In what universe does being a mudshark carry less SMV penalty than having slept with Steve in Accounting?


Sokrates said...

It is very important not to become a slave to status. Status is tricky – everybody wants it but it’s value very often is questionable. Prefer freedom over status.

Hammerli 280 said...

Jack Amok is right, I think. Women tend to have an exaggerated idea of their SMV, an even more exaggerated idea of their MMV.

I've been mulling over ways for Miss Ann Average to raise both - and there are several fast methods that require neither starvation nor sweat. MMV boosts in particular.

Retrenched said...

That would also explain why very attractive women are rarely, if ever, cruel in their rejections. They know they're hot, and does everyone else, so they've got nothing to prove by "nuclear rejecting" guys.

SQT said...

When I met my husband it was perceived that I had higher status than he did because we were both working at a restaurant and I was a cocktail waitress and he was a busboy. What the other girls never bothered to find out was that he never tried to climb the piddly ladder in the restaurant business because he didn't want to waste his time. He kept his head down and worked his way through college quickly.

We were both set to graduate at the same time when we started dating. It caused quite the uproar at our job but instead of lowering my perceived status it raised his. All of the girls that previously blew him off started blatantly hitting on him. A number of girls told him that they would date him if he asked-- he declined.

It felt really good when we ran into one of those girls several years later after we were married and had our first child and she was still single and in a crappy job.

Cristo said...

Men with Down Syndrome rarely receive a nuclear rejection. Because that's just mean.

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