Friday, April 24, 2015

Alpha Mail: divorce and disclosure

TA asks about the right time to tell a woman about his marital history:
 I am a 28yo man who believe in the red pill teachings and have been learning from many bloggers, including Heartiste, Rollo, and you, for a number of years. I have come across your post "No disclosure means divorce" the other day. You mention that, "young men should start expressing a firm No Disclosure Means Divorce policy, as this… permits men to make informed decision with regards to whom they will or will not marry." I have a similar scenario, but in reverse, and I want to seek for your advice.

I made the biggest mistake of getting married when I was 25yo only to find out that my "wife" cheated on me shortly after our marriage. Needless to say, I separated from her immediately and am in the process of filing a divorce. Fast forward to now, I am ready to go into a more serious relationship. I am wondering if I ever find a woman that is worthy of my time investment and with whom I see a future, when I should disclose my past history of marriage and divorce to her. And how would you suggest me disclosing without jeopardizing the relationship?
I think the right time is on the first date. I don't think it is necessary to go into details concerning precisely why the marriage failed; a light-hearted statement like "she failed to understand the concept that marriage entails the end of one's casual dating life" will suffice.

Women aren't like men. They don't view divorce as the turnoff that men do. Quite to the contrary, they see it as evidence that a man is "the marrying kind", so long as he isn't wounded and bitter about it. The longer TA fails to disclose his divorce, the more likely it is that the woman will be troubled by it when she finally learns about it. The less concerned about it he appears, the less interested and bothered by it she will be.

If asked about it, TA should simply shrug, give a wry smile, and say: "Oh, she was young and silly. It was hardly the end of the world. Anyway, that was a long time ago, so what about you? Any secret marriages into a polygamous Mormon household or an Arab harem?"

The one thing to absolutely avoid is the temptation to cry on the new woman's shoulder and tell her what a wounded bird he is and how he'll never be able to trust again. Women are attracted to rocks, not wounded birds.


Unknown said...

If a woman cheats in a marriage, from how I understand it biblically that is the only permissible time a man can divorce her. Every other way is some type of frivorce. If it were me I'd lead with that, I'm divorced because she cheated on me and didn't take the vows seriously...with no bitterness of course. I wouldn't see any reason to be sly about it.

SarahsDaughter said...

I wouldn't see any reason to be sly about it.

There's nothing sly about telling her the way it was suggested and it says virtually the same thing. It will also stave off the possibility of diminished attraction and the thought, "If she cheated on him, I wonder what is wrong with him that made her look elsewhere."

Anonymous said...

Every other way is some type of frivorce. If it were me I'd lead with that, I'm divorced because she cheated on me and didn't take the vows seriously...with no bitterness of course.

Good luck conveying that with that kind of earnestness without a woman hearing it as bitter. A little humor does that much better, and you don't really want to be throwing words like "vows" around on a first date anyway.

Besides, a woman doesn't want to know everything anyway. She wants a man to have some mystery, some things he holds back from the rest of the world, which only a Special Snowflake will be able to bring out of him over time.

There's always, "It's complicated."

Unknown said...

I don't know why you would even talk about past relationships on a first date to begin with. It's more to get to know each other.

Unknown said...

But yes if it is brought up humor is a better way to go.

SarahsDaughter said...

It's more to get to know each other.

Like favorite colors and songs?

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

They don't view divorce as the turnoff that men do. Quite to the contrary, they see it as evidence that a man is "the marrying kind", so long as he isn't wounded and bitter about it.

You're absolutely right, Vox. They see a 'starter marriage' as a positive. When I'm asked about it, I laugh and freely admit it was a mistake--and that I initiated it. And then, if pressed, I whip out a photo of my ex-wife. This is where it helps to have been married to a younger, blonde hottie. It's evidence of pre-selection. The women love it.

Anonymous said...

I don't know why you would even talk about past relationships on a first date to begin with.

If she's interested in you, she will find a way to raise the topic. That might even be a good "tell" for guys who have a hard time telling whether a woman is interested: if she doesn't bring up past relationships, she's not thinking about having one with you.

Anonymous said...

I've never had good experiences talking about ex's on a first date. If she asks, don't avoid the question but don't awkwardly bring it up either.

Anonymous said...

Yikes. I suspect that many of these starter marriages are invalid due to defect of intention; this broad obviously had no clue what a marriage actually is or what it entails. Heck, most people have no clue. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the current plague of sodomogamophilia.

Happy Housewife said...

I would say that, even if she doesn't bring it up at some point, it's a good idea to throw it out there early on if the divorce was because of you, and not infidelity of the wife. Maybe not first date, but early. Had a boyfriend of eight months mention something offhandedly about his ex-wife, which was the first I'd heard of him having been married before. When I expressed surprise, he acted like it was no big deal that he hadn't mentioned it before since it was a marriage of convenience, bereft of love, with a planned end date.

It changed how I saw him, and not for the better.

hank.jim said...

Speaking from experience as a divorcee, it depends. If you don't like her or she doesn't like you, there is no need because there is no second date. If there is a second date, that's when I will tell her and she should tell you about her past relationships. I actually dated a divorcee and it lasted 4 dates before I called it quits. Divorce was brought up at the first date (actually the second meeting) since the initial introduction.

Yes, mentioning divorce is difficult and a possible deal breaker. That's the risk you take. Don't get into the details until later. Give details as you get to know her. She might not even ask. However, if it is something quite serious like kids or cheating (you, not your previous wife), you should tell her now. Give her a chance to get out sooner. You don't want to waste time with her.

One thing women never mention is her sexual history. Funny thing is sexual history is less of a hindrance for women than men. Nonetheless, if you desire to marry a submissive and God fearing woman, it is best that you're not promiscuous during your single life because this will be another hurdle that she must deal with along with divorce.

Unknown said...

'I've never had good experiences talking about ex's on a first date. If she asks, don't avoid the question but don't awkwardly bring it up either.'

Yeah it's a topic I don't willingly bring up on first dates because it's usually not a good experience that early in the process. If she asks...I'll answer and then move on to something else.

Unknown said...

'One thing women never mention is her sexual history.'

Do men even ask? And by asking I mean actually asking instead of having sex with them.

Sidenote: I'm aware of all the 'actual N is usually a lie' thing...that doesn't mean you shouldn't still ask.

Anonymous said...


Typically, the women will volunteer the information without the man asking, if the man is high-value. Low-value men are usually kept in the dark. Not sure if it's because they don't respect the low-value man enough to be honest or if they figure he'd freak out and they'd lose a potential beta bux, or for some other reason.

Unknown said...

'Typically, the women will volunteer the information without the man asking, if the man is high-value.'

Yeah...I take high-value as the man knows what's going on.

As in he knows pretty much all the tells between a promiscuous woman and a woman that isn't and chooses what he wants accordingly.

But rather than knowing's always good to get verification after you have known each other for a while if she doesn't reveal it directly.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Several years ago I went out with this woman who was the friend of a woman U had unsuccessfully tried to date (and who in turn had been referred to me by my clients). A tall, pretty, lanky brunette, she came from a good family who owned a big horse ranch nearby. Her grandfather was a famous Spitfire pilot in WWII or something. Anyway, we're on our first date, and she tells me that she once dated a black dude. I thought, WTF? Why is she telling me this? I banged her anyway, but I really wanted her friend, the one who introduced me to her. The fact she dated an ape bothered me less than the fact she was heavily into equestrian sports. Don't date horse women.

Anonymous said...

Whats wrong with horse women? Personal preference or some game related insight?

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

I've always found women who are into horses a bit 'off'. They come across as obsessive, masculine, and somewhat cold. Many of them are the spoiled daughters of rich Beta dads who bought them ponies at age 10 [I've known women like this, both in the US and UK], and have grown up with a sense of entitlement. Avoid them.

* There might be some good girls in Western states who ride horses in rodeos and circuses, but I don't know much about them.

Matt said...

Girls who admit to dating black men .I wonder if prior experience taught her to get that information out of the way, or if she was on some sort of personal adventure and says it for kicks. Or was it verbal diarrhea? Either way shes not marriage material.

guest said...

Please provide this information quickly if you have been married before. Some churches won't accept a divorce if it wasn't "scriptural" and if the young woman belongs to one of these faiths, the results for everyone involved could be horrific.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Either way shes not marriage material.

Tell me about it. Now that I think about it more, I recall that she admitted to having been in several--not just one or two, but several--automobile accidents. I thought that was very odd. We went on a few dates, but my interest just wasn't there.

I remember the night I broke up with her because it was pouring rain. We were out at a restaurant bar with her friend (the one I really wanted), and at some point, for some reason, I simply thought "fuck this". I walked out and drove home. She called and left some messages, angry because she had wanted to come home with me. (Why did I do this? I don't recall. I was probably annoyed at her, or them. I probably could have taken both of them home!).

I think in some cases it's best to cut your losses and move on quickly.

Anonymous said...

Horse girls and coalburners both seem to have a similar sort of mental problem. Basically, a weaker version of lesbianism.

Haus frau said...

My husband and I owned horses until we were forced to move a few years ago. I've never been to a horse show.I don't consider my pets to be fury people. That said we both notice the stereotypical female horse owner has more than a few unflattering traits. She is typically an overweight, middle aged divorcee. She rides with other women not men. She regards her animals as fury children and thinks herself an expert on how to treat them and train them so much so that it's common for her to throw around accusations of being an animal towards pretty much anyone who doesn't treat their animals the way she does. We used to live below a hill where there was a large boarding stable. We repeatedly had to deal with sheriffs and humane society people investigating complaints that our 3 horses had no food or water. Problem was the food bins and water trough could not be seen from the hill above. I guess the horse woman type could be considered a kind of tell for sjw traits with the twist that they are animal centric. Personally, I don't consider myself a horse woman though I enjoy them.

Unknown said...

Aaron Clarey mentioned one group of women to avoid is the horse women. He gave plenty of reasons why but mental illness was the big one. I've seen this in real life too. Anybody have opinions on the women who are huge gun nuts? Not the ones who like to shoot every once in a while, but the ones who make guns a way of life. They seem to have the similar mental illness.

insanitybytes22 said...

Vox Day, man up and apologize. I did not deserve to be called a rancid vagina or doxed. Those are the actions of a bully, a misguided bully, especially when my words have always been kind towards you.

Ron said...

Women are attracted to rocks, not wounded birds.

So much truth in that one statement.

Anonymous said...

I suspect you can divide horsewomen into two fairly distinct groups. When I go to the county fair and watch the barrel racing, I mainly see women who are slimmer, friendlier, and more feminine than the average (despite wearing jeans). But these are women who feed and care for their own horses, and since they train them for competition, they can't afford to be too sentimental.

On the other hand, you have the boarding stable customers described by Haus Frau, who show up once every week or two to spoil their "babies." Sort of a country version of the urban woman who has a designer child at 35 and immediately pushes him off on nannies and other professionals so she can get back to her career, but overdoes special occasions and thinks she's a great mother because quality > quantity.

The first group can be quite appealing; the second not so much.

Haus frau said...

I think you hit it cail. Bonafied country girl vs wannabe urbanite. An urbanite can become a country girl but they have to let go of some of tendency to anthropomorphize animals.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Yes, you guys nailed it.

Anyone have experience dealing with people in horse country? I know of some families who own ranches and horse farms in south Orange County (e.g., San Juan Capistrano) and the amount of wheeling-n-dealing, scandals, lawsuits, and backbiting that goes on among those people is just amazing.

Matt said...

I imagine horsegirls see the horse as their man. I recall an article, maybe on roissy, about women treating their horses differently than their dogs. They think of dogs as their babies and their little boys, but refer to their horses differently. The physicality triggers a different feeling. Theyre creepy women.

hamster_wrestler said...

Laguna Beach Fogey

"Tell me about it. Now that I think about it more, I recall that she admitted to having been in several--not just one or two, but several--automobile accidents. "

By chance was her name Cindy?

Anonymous said...


Yeah, horse girls are pretty much the female version of these guys.

Anonymous said...

"she failed to understand the concept that marriage entails the end of one's casual dating life"

Or as a friend of mine said about his first wife, "She married me between boyfriends."

Unknown said...

Women are women no matter what they ride. Horses are expensive and a lot of work... Even out west. Unless you love horses just avoid these women for any serious relationship. Theyll want you to supply a ranch.

If you are unmarried/divorced and in your 40s, consider making up a failed marriage.

Anonymous said...

Horse girls are simply the equivalent of women who collect cats, but who have access to a (much) bigger budget.

Regarding the original topic: women don't care about divorce, period. It functions as a weird form of preselection. You can work things to your advantage if you still have enough contact to with the ex that the new woman feels like she has to compete.

Mind you, I believe that remarriage has absolutely no benefits to a man in today's society, and I think it's immoral as well, unless you're willing to concede that what you are actually doing is being married to two women.

@Laguna Beach Fogey

I will admit that did pick the most attractive photos of my ex-wife to carry around in my wallet. Of course, this doesn't help guys who married an ogress.

@Earl Thomas

In my experience chaste women will be a little more upfront about the fact they are chaste.

If a woman hesitates or doesn't want to say when asked, she's lying.

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