I had always been baffled by white knights – men who saw it as their purpose in life to save every woman from the consequences of her own ineptitude. Like many others, I thought men want sex, and white knighting is a strategy some men use to get it. The baffling part was that I had never seen this strategy actually work – I never saw a man get to sleep with the woman he so passionately tried to save. Why would masses and masses of men try to get sex with a method that never actually gets them laid? Don’t they realize their sexual strategy is not working?I find this idea more persuasive than the oft-heard one that the white knight is performing in search of sex. Too many times, I've seen men go into white knight mode on behalf of a woman they don't even know, don't intend to approach, and clearly have no expectation of ever meeting, let alone having sex with.
In truth, the white knight is not after sex.... On a deep level, he feels that it is women and women only who can grant him the honor he desires. When men condemn him, it is invariably the ‘wrong kind’ of men – their attacks don’t lead the white knight to doubt himself. If anything, when men oppose the white knight, the white knight takes this as a sign that he is doing something right, because he has upset an opposing tribe – that of lotharios and misogynists. What he prizes is female endorsement, for it is only women who can say with authority that he is a man of honor, as he has been told all his life.
And one thing I've noticed is that the white knight's behavior is always about him and how he sees himself, not about the woman he is defending. So, the idea that white-knighting is just a warped and misplaced sense of honor does make sense, if one accepts the idea that honor is a man's gift to himself.
58 comments:
So a white knight is what we used to call a "Momma's boy", in other words. He just needs Momma or a Momma stand-in to tell him he's a good boy. No surprise here. It certainly matches experience far better than the "white knights are trying to get laid" idea.
Why is being a do gooder such a hard thing to understand? He doesn't have sex with her because you don't screw what you perceive to be innocent, which is a powerless needy woman. He might screw a more stronger woman that he can slap around and it adds excitement. Men save woman as an ego boost and get masculine confirmation without it having to lead to sex. This is contrary to what you see in movies where the guy almost always winds up in bed with the woman he has helped. Sometimes the woman herself is the manipulator. To avoid such miscommunication, I don't help strange woman myself even if asked.
I also think it is a misguided belief about being the protector and provider to women. Perhaps this comes in from brainwashing as I've heard stories about single mothers telling their sons that men are slaves to women. In fact I would say most white knights are products of either single mothers or weak father households.
You are not required to be protector and provider for ALL women...just the women you are responsible for.
I think it's still about sex, but not directly, for the reasons you and he point out. It's not, "If I save her, she might have sex with me." It's more like, "If I make a habit of saving women, that means I am the kind of honorable gentleman that women want to have sex with." It's about his image of himself -- as the kind of man he thinks women should admire and desire.
But he makes some good points about how it's now hard for boys and men to get honor in conflict with other boys and men, so they look elsewhere for it. Also, that women are now considered more moral and just generally better than men, which makes them seem like the best arbiters of what is honorable. A century ago, a man who thought being honorable would make him attractive to women, at least didn't have to try to get that honor from women.
You are not required to be protector and provider for ALL women...just the women you are responsible for.
Right, but in a way, the white knight is trying to demonstrate his protector and provider skills. If he's willing and able to protect women he doesn't even know, how much more would he do for a woman of his own? That's supposed to make other women hot for him, wanting to gain that devotion for themselves.
The White Knight project:
Step 1: Get female approval
Step 2: ???
Step 3: SEX!
'If he's willing and able to protect women he doesn't even know, how much more would he do for a woman of his own? That's supposed to make other women hot for him, wanting to gain that devotion for themselves.'
Yeah which may sound good in theory and then we see in reality the white knight is often the one the woman attacks as she defends the guy she knows or has feelings for.
So perhaps Don Quixote is the first example of a white knight? He certainly wasn't motivated by sex, but his behavior was very white knight like.
"Misplaced" sense of honor??? If you think defending innocent people is "misplaced", then you are selfish and evil. The general idea of being a good person is that the strong defend the weak (as much as is reasonable).
Oh, by the way, all casual sex (I.e. without marriage) is rape.
If you think defending innocent people is "misplaced", then you are selfish and evil.
If you think women are "innocent", then you are simply stupid.
This 'toon sums it up.
On second thought, it could be that white knights are clinging to the old chivalric ideal of "courtly love", wherein the knight eagerly submits himself to the whims of his Lady, fighting battles on her behalf with no expectation of reward beyond maybe a little favor like a scarf.
'On second thought, it could be that white knights are clinging to the old chivalric ideal of "courtly love", wherein the knight eagerly submits himself to the whims of his Lady, fighting battles on her behalf with no expectation of reward beyond maybe a little favor like a scarf.'
Which actually isn't the complete truth. The knights moreso submitted themselves to defend the king and their country. Women were part of the deal but not the purpose and certainly not the authoritarian of the deal.
Even your own comment is a contradiction.
'If you think defending innocent people is "misplaced", then you are selfish and evil.'
Sweeping statement.
'The general idea of being a good person is that the strong defend the weak (as much as is reasonable).'
Generality and you throw reason into it.
It is selfish and evil if you don't defend the weak whom you are responsible for...it is not selfish and evil to just be the defender in every situation. What if you are the weak one at that time?
"to save every woman"
It's not every woman but every young fertile woman. Yes it is about sexual attraction. And yes it is good for the species, since fertile women and kids should be protected. Men also have the urge to protect kids. Doing the "right thing" and doing it loud makes you a hero, which puts you a little upper in the value chain and may get you some pussy.
The main problem of the white knights is not that they are acting on their valid instinct to protect women - it's that this is the only value they have to offer, so they do it blindly, foolishly, and compulsively.
"that of lotharios and misogynists."
I propose white knights actually believe that bullshit and think women are actual victims of the "misogynists" they freely choose to fuck with once and again. Because they take women's words and complaints at face value, instead of reading into what they are actually saying. Because they have ZERO actual experience with women other than what they gain (or lose) through white knighting.
"I never saw a man get to sleep with the woman he so passionately tried to save"
I did - till I learned they couldnt be saved because it's all an act to call for more and more attention and resources. Funny that succeeding as a white knights makes you stop being one.
"all casual sex (I.e. without marriage) is rape"
That's a first. Who's raping who?
You're mixing things up, Earl. "Courtly Love" and "Chivalry" are not the same thing. You can read the link for more in depth information, but basically "Chivalry" was a code of behavior applied in real life while "Courtly Love" was a literary convention in which the fictional knights did, in fact, submit themselves to their beloved Ladies. The knight even called his lady "midons" (lit "my lord"), a title normally reserved for a male liege lord.
Ever wonder why a man is expected to kneel when he proposes?
You dishonor a woman by sleeping with her quickly and by taking advantage of your position. This contradicts his honorable intent.
"You dishonor a woman"
They have none - honor is to be earned.
When people apply the word honor to women it seems to mean chastity, not honor, and Yohami is correct, it is not earned, but kept.
It is about sex, just in a different context. In the context of needing - narcissisticlly - needing to actively do things to soothe the overwrought ego, even sex can be only partly about lust and mostly about worthiness. White Knighting may seldom if ever lead to sex, but it often leads to a bounty of fake smiles, sustained non sexual eye contact -HUGE reward there - and occasionally touch from beautiful women. Just as the slut deludes herself "He really loves me...excuse excuse," The White Knight has endless stories to use to try to convince himself of his worthiness. Gold, I tell ya. Worth way more than sex with hoes.
'You're mixing things up, Earl. "Courtly Love" and "Chivalry" are not the same thing.'
From how you explained it...chivalry is based in reality and courtly love is based in fiction. Another form of porn for women.
'Ever wonder why a man is expected to kneel when he proposes? '
I do wonder why a man is expected to do that...because I know what genuflection means.
This to me is much more correct on who should be genuflecting and to whom.
https://tomperna.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/kitchner-wedding.jpg
You're contributing to the dishonor. Whether a woman or a man has honor is already self evident.
'When people apply the word honor to women it seems to mean chastity, not honor, and Yohami is correct, it is not earned, but kept. '
Chastity for women is the better term and it is not earned but given. It's up to her to keep it and then give it to the right man (either God and/or her husband).
A deceitful man can certainly play a part in taking this away from her.
"A deceitful man"
Most women dont require deceit to get rid of their own chastity. All they require is a good alpha fuck available.
It is not just about female approval. There is a close approximation between white knighting (misplaced virtue) and chivalry (general virtue). These are concepts that are so close to each other that one is often mistaken for the other. (Chivalry from the french word for "knight"). Plenty of men in society give approval to other men who practice chivalrous behavior (polite to strangers, courtious to elders, using strength to defend innocent weakness). And good men value the general approval of the other people (men and women) in their community. It simply makes living in that community easier. In much of civilisation, it is very common for the young to be immersed and conditioned to behave this way. So it should not be surprising that they continue to act this way as adults.
Some of it surely stems from the cult of the gentleman, which has done so much to pussify Western men. Some guys just have puffed-up, purified images of themselves.
This to me is much more correct on who should be genuflecting and to whom
The proper place for a woman is on her knees before her lord. i.e., the man.
It's actually quite difficult, outside of sex, to find depictions of woman's proper submission to man.
'Most women dont require deceit to get rid of their own chastity. All they require is a good alpha fuck available.'
Deceit is always required to get rid of it before the action happens. That's why Eve ate the apple.
In much of civilisation, it is very common for the young to be immersed and conditioned to behave this way.
Yes, a lot of this behaviour is a result of a certain kind of upbringing and education.
Mothers, tutors, priests, elders instructing young men to behave like a gentleman and treat the young ladies with deference and respect, in fact to put girls' interests before their own.
How fucked-up is that?
'It's actually quite difficult, outside of sex, to find depictions of woman's proper submission to man.'
It's not difficult outside of sex to find depictions of it. It is quite difficult if sex is the only thing you are going off of.
I suppose it's common in Islam, too.
”The sentiment [of Courtly Love], of course, is love, but love of a highly specialized sort... The lover is always abject. Obedience to his lady’s lightest wish, however whimsical, and silent acquiescence in her rebukes, however unjust, are the only virtues he dares to claim. There is a service of love closely modeled on the service which a feudal vassal owes to his lord. The lover is the lady’s ‘man’. He addresses her as midons, which etymologically represents not ‘my lady’ but ‘my lord’.”
-C. S. Lewis, The Allegory of Love: A Study of the Medieval Tradition, Chapter 1: Courtly Love
I think a lot of the white-knighting behaviour is aspirational in nature, i.e. common (bourgeois) young men attempting to unilaterally raise their socio-economic status--and therefore SMV and MMV--by aping the the conduct of genuinely superior, well-born men.
You see a lot of this in a certain kind of Christian man, this purified, self-righteous, puffed-up self-regard that so many of them have, and which many of us find so grating.
”Scholars soon saw striking parallels between feudalistic practices and certain tenets of Courtly Love. The comparisons lie in certain resemblances shared by vassalage and the courtly “love service.” Fundamental to both was the concept of obedience. As a vassal, the liegeman swore obedience to his lord. As a courtly lover, the poet chose a lady to whom he was required to swear obedience…
Like the liegeman vis-a-vis his sovereign, the poet approached his lady with fear and respect. Submitted to her, obedient to her will, he awaited a fief or honor as did the vassal. His compensation took many forms: the pleasure of his lady’s company in her chamber or in the garden; an avowal of her love; a secret meeting; a kiss or even le surplus, complete unity. Like the lord, the woman who was venerated and served was expected to reward her faithful and humble servant.“
-Sandra R Alfonsi, Masculine Submission in Troubadour Lyric
Don Quixote, whom someone mentioned above, is an intentional parody of this type of medieval, idealized "Courtly Love".
These tropes are also played straight in the works of Sir Walter Scott.
If a Christian man is self-righteous and has a puffed-up self-regard...he's doing it wrong. Delusional pride in one's self can affect any human.
Krul... Courtly Love... as a concept... was actually a system invented to make infidelity easier for everyone.
Nate
Yes, CS lewis identified its characteristics as "Humility, Courtesy, **Adultery**, and the Religion of Love".
I think shopworn versions of some of the Courtly Love notions, like submissive male service to idealized women as a "noble" thing, are still floating around our culture. Perhaps "white knights" are the guys who make the mistake of taking them seriously. Hence the name.
There is a close approximation between white knighting (misplaced virtue) and chivalry (general virtue).
I think this is on the right track. Honorable men have a duty to their compatriots. If I'm visiting Vox, and while he's off running Ender to a kickball game some goons start harrassing Spacebunny, I have an duty to Vox to protect her for him until he gets back. Nothing White Knigtish about that, it's part of being civilized. Men can go off and do things and feel comfortable their wives, sisters and daughters will be protected while they're gone.
Where the White Knight goes wrong is not realizing there is no man that he's filling in for. The woman he's defending has rejected the protection of any specific man. It's something of a free-rider problem if you want to look at it that way. Without White Knights, to obtain general protection from all the men in a clan, a woman would first need to secure the protection of one speicific man (her father or her husband). The women White Knights defend skip that step, assuming they'll still have access to the general protection pool.
White Knights are the equivalent of bank bailouts.
'The women White Knights defend skip that step, assuming they'll still have access to the general protection pool.'
Hence why women can live with the delusion they are 'strong and independent'.
Even the police have more authority to protect random women who's in a bad situation than a white knight does. That's part of their job.
The woman he's defending has rejected the protection of any specific man. It's something of a free-rider problem if you want to look at it that way.
Exactly. This can be applied to the everyday courtesy and deference traditionally extended by men to females. Hold the door open for some entitled princess? Fuck that. Cue the shocked gasps.
if one accepts the idea that honor is a man's gift to himself.
I think you're off. The problem is that the ways of seeking honor have been lost to a great many men out there. What other way in modern society do men have to find honor but to try and give it to themselves? Like the scene in Battlefield Earth where the aliens think rats must be humanity's favorite food, don't mistake a lack of options for a deeper truth. Men are desperate for something more. White knighting is just example of that desperation. They are taking whatever they can get.
Men defending women is a Christian ideal. Jesus does it in the Bible (not that I'm a Christian, just a casual fan):
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
Men defending women is a Christian ideal.
Uh huh.
From the Science of Chivalry by Chrétien de Troyes 1175
If a knight is to find a damsel he will sooner think of cutting his own throat than offering her dishonor...
However.
If the damsel is accompanied by another knight and it pleases him to give combat by arms and bests him he may have his way with her as he wills.
So there you are. It is completely chivalrous to rape a woman next to the cooling corpse of her husband.
Jesus was defending the truth...the woman benefited from it. As we all do.
But in that story Jesus was also brought into the discussion...he didn't swoop in from nowhere.
Men defending women is a Christian ideal. Jesus does it in the Bible (not that I'm a Christian, just a casual fan):
He didn't defend her.
He had the men look at their own sins. They resolved to walk away. He didn't chase them away and they had free will to stay and stone her.
You should steer clear of using the Bible to make your points until you study it further.
@agalltyr
I think Jesus' point was that all the men were apparently sleeping around behind their wives' back, and if they stoned an adulterous woman, they'd be hypocrites. It wasn't white-knighting per se; in addition, He also ordered her to stop sleeping around.
Cargo cultism. Confusion of cause and effect. Correlation not equaling causation.
White knights act in a chivalrous way towards women in the belief that it will cause the women to act in a reciprocal courtly way---stop sleeping around, become faithful to them, become good mothers and chaste.
They do not realize that the reason men developed a chivalric code was because certain women deserved it. Knights didn't follow a chivalric code with prostitutes or common women; such women were just so much booty to take and use as the knights saw fit. It was only when a woman proved herself as virginal and high-class that a knight bestowed upon her courtly pleasantries and restraint.
They do not realize that the reason men developed a chivalric code was because certain women deserved it. Knights didn't follow a chivalric code with prostitutes or common women; such women were just so much booty to take and use as the knights saw fit. It was only when a woman proved herself as virginal and high-class that a knight bestowed upon her courtly pleasantries and restraint.
Even this seems like a later development. Chivalry was a system to bend barbarian warriors into honorable men and was reciprocal in a way: the strong defended the loyal weak, the weak were gracious, helpful and accommodating. The weak weren't always just women you wanted to court, it included children and the elderly or disabled and wounded. And the weak had their own responsibilities, otherwise they didn't deserve the protection of the strong. Another thing lost to the completely romantic, more modern ideal of chivalry, which is one-sided and gynocentric.
For most of my adult life (late 50s) I was a white knight on steroids. I think the supposed validation by women is a major part of it: the ability to see yourself as a "good guy". It is still a hard habit to break and I have to be vigilant. Since I ultimately married one of the women I white knighted it has brought me nothing but hardship. No good deed as they say.
On the topic of honor being man's gift to himself:
"To beasts moved only by meat, and the pressure of blows, the hungers of higher and more terrible organisms will remain always exceedingly mysterious. I know of now way to prove the existence of glofy to those who lack the senses for its apprehension. By what yardsticks can its magnitude be measured?
"You are unarmed," I said. "Flee. Do not die here, in this empty place, in this moonlight, on this foreign sand. Who will know, or care?"
"It does not matter," it said.
""Flee," I said. "There is no one here to recognize your glory."
"You are mistaken," it said.
"Who is here, then?" I asked.
"I am here, " it said.
John Norman, Players of Gor
There is a perception among White Knights -- indeed, within the culture in general -- that women are, by nature, more virtuous beings. You see this all the time. Women's intuition, they will say. Or, perhaps, one will comment on how women are more empathetic and kind.
It's all delusion, of course. But, believing as they do, you can see how they come to value a woman's approval and perspective over their own.
White knighting has evolved with time.
In my dim and distant youth, the most common form of pointlessly defending a girls virtue went something like this:
Player: I think I gonna make a play for Stacey.
WK: Hey back off her dude. She's a nice girl.
Player: How would you know?
In those days it was a form of mate guarding but with out the mate part. Jealously was the big driving factor. Not really specific jealousy it was more generalized against players as a breed. There seemed to be a belief that the Player had some kind of magical power, that would turn a good girl into a bad one.
And that "good girls" needed to be defended from this power. If the White Knight failed, the girl would (under his Svengali like influence) render herself of lower market value by sleeping with the player. Thus becoming unworthy of the White Knight.
You still see some of that in today's' breed of WKs.
Being a white knight is far more than being chivalrous. A white knight is someone who seeks to protect women from their own choices or someone who protects a girl on social media from supposed "harrassers."
Arthur Chu for example is a white knight.
Chivalry from the french word for "knight"
No, actually chivalry comes from a french word that basically means "guy who rides a horse."
So, White Knights want to ride something, and if it looks something like a horse, well...
"White knights act in a chivalrous way towards women in the belief that it will cause the women to act in a reciprocal courtly way---stop sleeping around, become faithful to them, become good mothers and chaste."
A perfect example of the white knight is Hosea in the Bible. After having 3 children, Gomer fell back into her adulterous ways. She had left Hosea and she was being sold as a slave by another man. Hosea still loved her in spite of her unfaithfulness. To rescue her, he sought her out and purchased her freedom.
"You must dwell as mine for many days; you shall not play the harlot, or belong to another man; so will I also be to you." (Hosea 3:3b RSV) He reclaimed her. He said, "You are mine!"
This humbled Gomer and touched her heart. No one had ever cared for her so much. From this time on, Gomer was faithful to Hosea. She became an honest. industrious, faithful wife.
Jesus is my white knight. He has rescued me many times.
Jax Teller is my black knight. He could rescue me any day. I miss SOA.
@Laguna Beach Fogey
It's actually quite difficult, outside of sex, to find depictions of woman's proper submission to man.
I know of one example. The Japanese had the gesture of mitsuyubi as the customary display of obeisance from a woman to her husband.
This pose: みつゆび
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