Thursday, October 2, 2014

Alpha Mail: Sex in orbit

Roger with six "r"s points out that orbiting is an effective sexual strategy, it's merely not an efficient one:
Orbiting/white-knighting is not just an occasional behavior of weak beta males. It is one of the key sexual strategies of the human male. It works. These guys will get laid now and again.
This is absolutely true. I have a friend who once dedicated three years to orbiting the same girl until finally she broke down and went out with him; they lasted less than half as long as a couple as he had spent orbiting. And this was a successful outcome!

The point isn't that orbiting never works, but rather, that it comes at a tremendous opportunity cost. I can't even imagine how many opportunities of equal quality my friend let pass because he was so fixated on that one woman, but it was probably over a dozen. Orbiting is the exact opposite of the abundance mentality; no man who subscribes to the concept of the Girl Tree will tend to find himself caught in orbit for very long.


Dark Herald said...

It always ends badly.

The girl in question is never really interested in her orbiter. She has not been, moved by the depth of his feelings for her. She has not seen the intrinsic nobility of his character. She has not finally sucumbed to the power of his love for her. She did not suddenly fall in love with her orbitter for no apparent reason.

None of those things have happened.

Generally there is one of three things going on but In a nutshell.

She gave up.

Either she is facing the the big Three Oh realistically for the first time. Her looks are going. Her orbiters are flaking away. In the same week she couldn't get out a speeding ticket by flashing some cleavage and she had pay for her own drinks...for the first time...ever!

Or its Beta bucks time. The Alphas aren't dropping to one knee with ring in hand, so it's time to examine other less desirable options. Possibly her mother finally got through to her. After all her father used to be her mother's orbiter and they stayed together for almost seven years. You could do worse honey and at the moment you are on track to do just that.

Or maybe she's been burned by enough bad boys that she doesn't trust her own instincts anymore. She is right not to.

The beta in question will at first be deliriously happy. That will give her a bit of Yin fulfillment, she can still evoke sexual desire in a few men, although she will still be quite wistful about the A team. She will call her former orbiter, "muffin" or "sweety bug" or something else you call child.

Bottom line; in selecting an orbiter she is making a conscious decision to settle for less.

Unknown said...

I never understood the orbiter; call it pride or arrogance, but I never cling to a girl if I'm not getting any. There are girls I have crushed on and admired from afar, but I wouldn't ever orbit her. I'd ask her out, and take it from there. If I got a yes, I'd date her and see if it's working. If it was, awesome. If not, cut-bait and on to the next.

Bobby Dupea said...

An irony here is that a woman who decides it's beta bucks lane-changing time, and 'settles' on a friendly orbiter, likely won't forget her life in the fast lane. Pretty soon, she may well have a new satellite system, only this time it will be with men in the fast lane. She'll say, "I settled for safe and secure, but there's just something missing." This is code for "Take me now and don't tell anyone we did it." Alpha widowhood is forever.

A friend told me over the weekend about a conversation with a couple of female UMC liberal types she hangs out with. My friend admitted to them "I've never had a one-night-stand." One of the girlfriends, married, said, "Haha that's so strange. I've had 40 or 50." My friend didn't ask how many of those occurred after her marriage to her drafthorse chump. I thought I could hear her shudder, though, when I mentioned that I always double any self-proclaimed 'number' offered by a woman.

--Buena Vista

Anonymous said...

Yes, it occasionally "works" in the sense that he gets laid or gets an awkward, never-quite-right relationship out of it. But it never gets him the happily-ever-after that he's really looking for, and it's pretty much guaranteed to end in his heartbreak.

So I guess it works in the way that kicking a broken appliance works: sometimes it fixes it temporarily, but usually you just end up sore and cursing.

The worst part for the orbiter is that when he does have some success, he doesn't realize it was dumb luck -- he happened to be in the right place at the right time when she was on the rebound or feeling lonely, or she just took pity on him, or she was horny and figured it'd be easy to push him away afterwards. He thinks all his hard work and devotion finally paid off just like in the stories, so he doubles-down on it for the next one.

deti said...

The beta orbiter who finally “lands” on some woman never seems to realize that men and women are interested in each other for very different reasons.

As Cataline noted, she either

1. Gave up
2. Faced up to the Wall
3. Revved up for Beta Bucks;
4. Got burned up by bad boys and doesn’t trust herself; or
5. Wised up because Mom finally got through to her.

For the guy it’s quite different. He’s been patiently waiting waiting waiting. He’s been his Nice Guy self, but he hasn’t quite yet become the femcentric-concept NiceGuy ™. He finally meets her, this woman who’s probably about the hottest woman he’s been able to interact with (kind of like an ’88 Firebird with 250K miles on it– it’s pretty, hot even, and still goes fast. But lots and lots of guys got to drive it before you did, and they all drove it nice and HARD, and lots of times, and in all sorts of conditions, and the leather seats are a bit cracked.)

He runs his best delta gamma game on her, does it the same way he’s always done it. He just wants a nice woman to call his own, to get married to, to be the mom of his kids, and to live happily ever after. But for some reason, it’s actually WORKED on this ex carousel rider

He thinks he’s getting the woman of his dreams. What he’s actually getting is a woman who’s tired of being pushed for sex all the time (at least by this guy – she’ll happily put out for a guy who trips her trigger). This is her sexual retirement; she’s putting herself out to pasture on this guys’ dime.

Dark Herald said...

Game Theory:

It is possible....

Just barely possible for an orbiter to establish stronger feelings from his primary.

First a window of opportunity opens for rapid escalation through to climax.

She is splitting a bottle of wine with her orbiter while she moans about her latest breakup. Hold her hand soul-brother-handshake style with one hand start gently working your way up her bare arm gently thumb massaging with the other. Stop at the inside the of her elbow and linger there. Build up your Yang intensity for a few seconds then give her your best Alpha stare. Look for signs of responsiveness...yada-yada. If you knew enough to do any of this you wouldn't be an orbiter

Do. Not. Stay. The. Night.

Get dressed immediately, look her in the eye and say the magic words, "this was mistake." And leave.

Don't let her find you for while. When she does, run the Hot and Cold game on her. You are no longer a reliable orbiter so don't be reliable. Be a challenge to her, make her pursue and genuine interest will follow.

deti said...


It's not that people are fungible goods or a commodity. It's snapping men out of the notion of putting all his eggs in a basket with gaping holes in it. It's getting men to realize that if something doesn't work with this one, maybe something will work with another girl. It's getting men to realize that if he can't have this girl, maybe he can have another one.

"Abundance is such an empty victory, and such an insidious deception because it gives one the illusion of having attained something, when in fact you don't even know what you're looking for."

That's advice better directed at the female half of the equation.

swiftfoxmark2 said...

Sounds like the orbiter is a failure in life, not only in women, but in finances as well. No low time preferences, constantly thinking about the possibility of the here and now despite the track record.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

"I can't even imagine how many opportunities of equal quality my friend let pass because he was so fixated on that one woman"

Yes, this is key.

Abundance Mentality + Plate Theory would have kept this guy's chopper otherwise occupied, while the silly girl made up her mind.

Don't expend too much effort, time, money, and missed sexual opportunities, on one woman. They're just not worth it.

VD said...

You know Vox, it strikes me as terribly sad that anyone, male or female, would subscribe to the idea of the monkey tree, as if people were nothing but a commodity, factory produced for your consumption and easily exchanged for an alternative model.

GG, neither I nor anyone else cares even a little bit about how anything strikes you. Except lightning, I suppose. It would be difficult to object to that.

Trust said...

Women take their lead from men? No rational person can believd that is how this society works.

Unknown said...

This is like saying that you CAN indeed tear down your house with a sledgehammer. It's true, it might work. But it will take forever and wear you out. You'll get little satisfaction and by the time you accomplish your goal, you have nothing but a mass of debris left. Or you can get a bulldozer and plow the whole thing over in a day....

Efficiency is good!!

hank.jim said...

"it comes at a tremendous opportunity cost". To them, probably nothing lost nothing gained. They gotten as much as they wanted. He didn't want to lose that particular girl. The fact that he gained her by wearing her down is a bonus. The clock CAN be right two times a day even if it is broken.

Daniel said...

Vox, technically it is bad form to win your own thread, but I don't care: that was very, very funny.

SarahsDaughter said...

A woman with no honor, while sad and frustrating, is to be expected. To hear that she is mimicking the man in her life who is obviously void of honor as well is abhorrent. The kind of man who has to be literally punched in the face in order to leave a place he's not welcome...

I mentioned long ago that she is an embarrassment to her husband with all of her foolish (and sinful) attempts to instruct men spiritually. It's good to know she agrees that she mimics for us the pathetic fool of a man she is married to.

LibertyPortraits said...

Orbiting is such a perfect term. A real orbit is falling toward the planet but at an angle where you never make contact, and relational orbiting is falling for the same girl and never going anywhere with it.

APL said...

And there was me thinking this was a reference to Elena Serova.

VD said...

Your husband is a sad sack who can't control his rancid vagina of a wife. You bring him into disrepute every time you show up here to tell lies and flap your stink at everyone. Sarah's Daughter has your number, which is why you hate her so much.

It's outright hilarious to see your parody of the Good Christian Wife. And yet, you constantly complain about the specks in everyone else's eyes while ignoring the giant log sticking out of your one troll's eye.

Now go away, GG. You are poisonous old bitch and you are not wanted here. Go tell lies and humiliate your husband somewhere else.

VD said...

Take your foul mouth and your violent threats elsewhere, GG.

You are a filthy liar and a public shame to your husband. And we have all witnessed you repeatedly "bearing false witness" as well as threatening other women here.

Dexter said...

Sounds like the orbiter is a failure in life, not only in women, but in finances as well. No low time preferences, constantly thinking about the possibility of the here and now despite the track record.

Nah. The alpha badboy is more likely to be a failure in life. That's part of the reason he's exciting. The beta badboy is boringly successful in conventional terms -- does well in school, then gets a respectable job. They do well in school and at work, which don't necessarily require great people skills, and do poorly with women because book learnin' doesn't help them and they don't have people skills.

evilwhitemalempire said...

"Orbiting/white-knighting is not just an occasional behavior of weak beta males. It is one of the key sexual strategies of the human male. It works. These guys will get laid now and again."
Orbiting makes them avaliable whenever the female wants to 'get back' at her 'primary' boyfriend.

Retrenched said...

A big part of the appeal of the bad boy to women is that he lets them play the part of the bad girl. Its a lot harder for them to do that with a white knight, an "equal partner" male feminist, or a good Christian man from church I guess.

Dexter said...

"Orbiting makes them avaliable whenever the female wants to 'get back' at her 'primary' boyfriend."

Yup. Benefited from this myself when I was an orbiter. She'd come to me for revenge, then go back to him, then he'd cheat on her, then she'd come back to me, then go back to him again... repeated several times. Of course I had the orbiter attitude that I had to put up with it because how else am I going to get laid?

Anonymous said...

I think I may have come up with a more precise definition of 'Alpha male'.

First some definitions for direct and indirect benefits in mate choice.

Direct benefits are those that increase the fitness of the choosy sex through direct material advantages. These benefits include but are not limited to increased territory quality, increased parental care, and protection from predators. There is much support for maintenance of mate choice by direct benefits and it is the least controversial model to explain discriminate mating.

Indirect benefits increase genetic fitness for the offspring. When it appears that the choosy sex does not receive direct benefits from his or her mate, indirect benefits may be the payoff for being selective. Examples of indirect benefits include better genetic quality and more attractive offspring. R. A. Fisher described this less obvious model in a book called The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection.[9] Fisher explained that, through indirect selection, fitter individuals inherit both the genes and the mating preference for some indicator trait. This linkage of an indicator trait and the preference for such trait results in exaggerated phenotypes and is known as Fisherian runaway selection.

An 'Alpha male' is the male who gets the *best sex with the investment of the least direct benefits. Thus he is being selected primarily for indirect benefits.

*Best sex= some optimum of quantity and quality. i.e. banging numerous hot 18 year old virgins is better sex than i) banging numerous hot 30 year old sluts, or ii) one hot 18 year old virgin. (Not sure if banging 1000 hot 18 year old virgins once is better than banging one hot 18 year old virgin for a lifetime, what one subjectively prefers would depend where one sits on the r vs K spectrum I imagine. (Personally I would prefer one hot 18 year old virgin for a lifetime who is also faithful and loyal over one night stands with 1000 different hot 18 year old virgins, but I guess I'm pretty K selected.))

Or put even more precisely,

An alpha male, is a male who is sexually selected maximally (or at the maximum) for indirect benefits while sexually selected minimally (or at the minimum) for direct benefits.

This is also the optimum strategy for not being a cuckold.

So a corollary of this definition would be that the alpha male, is the male who minimises the risk of cuckoldry.

daleaf47 said...

There is a type of orbiting that is effective (I'd call it alpha orbiting), where you put in little effort and often get results. Examples: K. and I were in the same dorm, however she had already found her beta bux, who was smart enough to randomly drop by n the evenings so whe wouldn't date; I occasionaly ate lunch with her (say every few weeks, good social proof since she was hot), eventually got invited up to her room after lunch for some afternoon delight. Met G. in college, still committed to HS BF, talked pleasently with her when we met, asked her out again months later, dated until she went to different grad school; HS BF followed her, I heard they got engaged. Met L. when older woman from work brought her to a club I was in: l. had BF and did not join club; every several months I would ask L.s friend how L was doing and tell her to say Hi; after L broke up with BF we were lovers for a couple of years.

Anonymous said...

It's far better to run game on the women who are orbiting YOU. One good thing about Crackbook is that it makes it easy to figure out who your female orbiters are.

Unknown said...

Chris, I know you are trying hard and this is all very confusing, but I can assure that banging a lot of hot 30 year old sluts is way better than banging hot 18 year old virgins. The reason? 18 year old virgins exist in such small quantities that you might as well be speaking of unicorns. They also SUCK in bed. If you do find one in the wild, it takes forever to get tame sex. The upside that you were hinting at seeing, is that if you make her the ONE then you've done well. However, why not sample all the goods while finding the one??

Anonymous said...

@ Vincent Castrillo

You are responding to an addendum in my comment.

In that addendum I mention, "what one subjectively prefers would depend where one sits on the r vs K spectrum I imagine."

What you are referring to is a subjective preference that has no real answer other than, "that's what I prefer."

Anonymous said...

Sorry to post on a thread four days dead, but I know a man who spent 18 years in a particular woman's friendzone and ultimately broke out. (I've never actually met him, but you'll see at the end how I know him.)

They first met in 1967, when she was 14 and he was 19. Obviously at those ages they weren't going to date, but he dated her older sister, she dated his younger brother, and she thought of him as the big brother she never had. Over the next 10 years he developed feelings for her, but continued to date her sister and several of her friends. When she got married in 1977 (not to his brother), he was at her wedding.

That marriage lasted only two years. After that, he and she hung out in a large mixed group who partied together and had lots of short-term relationships. He wanted her, but never tried to date her. This lasted until she married again in 1985; she moved away and he lost track of her. Shortly after that he married someone else in the group. Meanwhile, she divorced again in 1987 and remarried in 1992.

Three years ago, he found out her current married name, tracked down her phone number, and called her. They got together to catch up on old times (hadn't seen each other in 26 years)--and began an affair which is still going on. They live over 400 miles apart and are both married, but find ways to get together several times a year.

How do I know all this? The woman in the story is my wife.

Unknown said...

Dude, your wife?? What's the story with that?

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