Tuesday, June 3, 2014

Careers can wait

Fertility won't. Kirstie Allsopp tells young women that their priorities are backwards:
“Women are being let down by the system. We should speak honestly and frankly about fertility and the fact it falls off a cliff when you’re 35. We should talk openly about university and whether going when you’re young, when we live so much longer, is really the way forward.

“At the moment, women have 15 years to go to university, get their career on track, try and buy a home and have a baby. That is a hell of a lot to ask someone. As a passionate feminist, I feel we have not been honest enough with women about this issue.”

“I don’t have a girl, but if I did I’d be saying 'Darling, do you know what? Don’t go to university. Start work straight after school, stay at home, save up your deposit – I’ll help you, let’s get you into a flat. And then we can find you a nice boyfriend and you can have a baby by the time you’re 27.”
She's absolutely right, of course. It's interesting to see forty-something GenX women speaking out against the nonsense they were taught by their Baby Boomer teachers and parents.


Anonymous said...

Perhaps there is still hope for the younger generation though I fear the rot and decay is embedded too deeply.

APL said...

"Women are being let down by the system."
The system designed by the feminists, ffs!

Thomas Davidsmeier said...

"Absolutely right" might be a bit strong.

She still seems to think people can have it all, just rearranged.

You're never going to get to a sustainable societal model until Jesus is King and we're all loyal subjects who love our neighbors (and our fellow family members) as ourselves.

Res Ipsa said...

I think the worst part about the putting off marriage and children belief is that so many churches have bought into it.
When I was a kid you still would hear young people being admonished to marry. Now I hear kids being told to finish college and start a job.

The best marriages I have seen didn't follow that model. In every case of a good marriage I can think of from my parents generation or older the women was 19 or younger when she married. In most cases of good marriages from my generation or younger the women was 21 or younger.

Does waiting an extra 7 years make that much of a difference? I think it does. For one thing it allows a female to rack up a much higher N than a reasonable man should marry. For another it gives her too much "me time". The longer a women puts of marriage the more time she has to develop selfishness. At some point she becomes so self centered that no man will ever be "good enough" for her.

For a man the expiration date on marriage is much older. Of course there are exceptions in the 25 to 30 year old range for women. Those exceptions are RARE. If I put a number on it I would say less than 1% of a medically intact virgins over 30 years of age would be suitable for marriage. No carousel rider over 30 should be considered for marriage.

Getting married young (under 20 for girls and under 25 for guys) is the best policy. You should hump your horney little hearts out and when you get pregnant enjoy it. If every thing follows a "normal" pattern you get about 20 years when you are young with your kids. Then if they follow your example, you get another 20 years with your grand kids when you are still young enough to enjoy doing stuff together. THEN God willing you get 10 or more years with the great grand kids. You might not be able to do as much with them because of age, but they will know you. They will love you. 100 years after you were born they will still remember you and tell their kids about how great you were. If by reason of good heath, and if your great grand kids followed you example you may even get to hold your great grand children in your arms.

That is a blessing worth working for. It sure as heck would beat making power points that will be forgotten 10 mins after the meeting is over.

Get married young. Have lots of sex. Get knocked up. Teach your kids to do the same. After you die, you will be loved and remembered.


Go to college screw lots of random strangers. Go deeply in debt. Get a job a Starbucks while spending 6 years looking for a "real job". Get a "real job". Involve yourself in "meaningful work". Die. The shelter will feed your cats for two weeks. If they don't get a new forever home in that time they will put them down.

Weouro said...

There's hope for the younger generation, since, like Chesterton said, these days, practicing virtue offers all the thrill of a vice. Since many are obsessed with fighting a big bad oppressor and going against the flow, we can expect the current of traditionalism to grow if for no other reason than that it's countercultural and kids get a thrill from opposing authority.

Anonymous said...

Why does she need a flat? She can still live at home and work. Unless she needs privacy for some reason that is not going to help her long-term goal of a stable marriage.

Anonymous said...

First, she does blame men, and puts the responsibility on them to tell the women, lets do this, which seems a bit odd considering men lost all reproductive and parenting rights with abortion and no fault divorce. Just more calls to "man up".

Second, I don't understand the delaying college bit so long as you can do it with minimal debt and go in with the objective to acquire your Mrs in addition to your BA/BS
1) Women don't have men strength and therefore don't have access to good paying blue collar jobs except through the minimal amount of AA hiring necessary to placate the government
2) If you are smart you aren't having children 18-22 anyway so its a decent time to do it
3) University is a reasonably solid place to find good providers. The data seems to suggest about 30% of people find their spouse in college, and its probably substantially higher for girls that are actively looking to.

Now you will need to prepare your daughter for the onslaught of social destruction she will receive while there, which is a pretty big minus to the whole thing, but you are unlikely to have a more fruitful vein of high quality men to point her at.

Matamoros said...

Without considering the N count, the younger the better. Women are designed to be more malleable so that they can become the wife a man wants by molding herself (or him molding her) into the proper attitudes, etc.

The older a woman gets, the more fixed she becomes in her thought patterns, wants and desires, and the less she is willing to "bend" or adapt to a guy's wants.

This is a big part of what is happening in college. These women are being molded, not by their husbands, but by feminist/marxist professors into abnormal mindsets and behaviors.

Can they be changed. Of course, if they really want to change. But it is much harder to leave an old mindset/behavior behind the older one becomes as it becomes more deeply ingrained into the psyche.

Consequently, marry a young woman and then be man enough to mold her into the wife you want. You will not get everything you want, so decide what are the 3 most important things to you on your list (sex, meals, clean house, ironing, etc.) and work on them consistently. You can get maybe two of those three consistently, and the third off and on. Everything else will be hit and miss.

How do you train a woman? The same way you train a puppy. Consistency, calm hand, and willingness to dominate. Just like dogs, some women are untrainable. You have to put the dog down, or give it to the Pound. A woman who refuses to learn and be the woman her man wants is not a real wife. She is disobeying on many levels. Dump her asap, and find a girl who is trainable. Life is too short to live with a shrew.

Crowhill said...

APL has it right. It's not a "system" that has led young women astray. It's feminist ideology.

T.L. Ciottoli said...

She should not have her own flat. The ONLY thing that happens with her own flat is that her N count goes up, rendering her less likely to attract and keep a good husband and father. Living with the parents has the added advantage of putting pressure on her to mature more quickly and look at her suitors with a more discerning eye if she truly desires to get out from under the roof of her parents. Parents should be meeting each and every one of the boys she goes out with.

Virtually every single decent-looking to highly attractive unmarried women over 22 in the West has already lost her virginity and has likely had more than 2 partners already. Even churchian types. And most definitely if they've been in any sort of long-term relationship. Even churchian types. Add to that their desire to continue having sex without kids, commitment, or responsibility, the pressure from their fellow females to go along with the feminist, career-hunting, materialistic, carousel-riding crowd, their delusions about being able to (or wanting to) support themselves forever, and their delusions about being able to wake up at 28-30, meet "him", pop out the kids without a hitch and live happily ever after... and you get women who are utterly untrainable. Even if they are trainable it is usually because they have already hit the wall or see it looming and are panicking. Even then, they usually just tend to become a bit more desperate, more vocal in their desire for settling down, and possibly even sluttier. Most have no idea what real change means, what submission to a husband/leader means, nor do they even have the real desire to do so. They literally cannot do so outside of accessing the power of the Holy Spirit. Their life of sin has wrought such great damage they will never see their way out of it all by themselves. Add in the fact that they have never met a man who even knew it was his job to lead her anywhere besides the bedroom. Her fathers, brothers, uncles, sisters, mothers, priests, pastors, and teachers never said a thing to her about looking for a godly man to submit to and help build a family with. Even if they stumble upon such a notion, if it is not dismissed immediately out of fear of social rejection or pride, or merely forgotten in the flood of distractions, diversions, and cheap thrills and 20-second sound bytes that is our modern age, it would take her years, and MALE leadership, to get her anywhere near where she needs to be.

What man is signing up for that? How many men even know, even have an modicum of awareness that that is what they are supposed to be doing with her? Even in the church?

I met one who was "trainable". Or rather she professed her deep desire to marry and have kids, only later to divulge practically everything about her tumultuous 6 year relationship with a deadbeat who "made her" have an abortion a few years ago. Clearly hit the wall already.

Damn shame. Not my mess to clean up though.

RC said...

I wholeheartedly agree with newrebelunivj about the flat. In fact, I want my sons to marry girls who've been loved and protected by an alpha-dog dad until the day they marry and, importantly, have appreciated his protection, not chaffed under it.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Here is a young woman at The Spectator writing in defence of Allsopp:


deti said...

The important thing is that a woman who wants to marry, make that decision early on and make it a priority. Then she marries early, at the latest by 25 and preferably sooner.

When I attended high school about 30 years ago and then college some 25 years ago, about half the girls there were clear that they were very open to finding someone to marry, and then acting on that. That marriage-imperative half were serious about finding a man to get married to; and many of them did marry. There was a big spate of marriages about a year after high school graduation with the brides around ages 18 to 20. Then another raft of marriages about a year after college graduation (when college was still 4 years to a BS/BA degree), with a gaggle of brides at about ages 22 to 24. A few of them split up; but most of those marriages are still together; probably a good 75%.

The marriage minded girls in college were clear that yeah, they were there to get "educated" and get out and work. They were were also pretty clear and unapologetic that they were also there to meet marriage minded men, find one, make him their own, and become a Mrs. very soon after graduation. Those girls were, I am sure, mostly sexually active with their serious boyfriends. They just didn't want to get pregnant before they got out of school. (Many did go ahead and get pregnant soon after graduating and marrying). They were following a "traditional" script; but it was elongated 4-5 years to accommodate a college degree.

The other half didn't care either way; or were actively opposed to even thinking about marriage. (And that "half" was growing as a percentage every year I was in school.) For that growing percentage, marriage would happen "someday", and there would always be men prepared to marry them. Those women fell into two subcategories: (1) carousel riders; and (2) career girls. The first were sluts, the second were unavailable. Either way, these girls' attitude toward marriage was "Marriage someday, maybe, but NOT NOW and NOT YET". The attitude was one of self-sufficiency uber alles; of hedging bets, of having a career because "Just in Case". "I have to get a job and be self-sufficient because you can't count on a man" and "what if he divorces me" and "what if he dies" and "what if something happens such that no man is there for me".

The second group got married, but most were around age 30, and a few were around 32 (which in the late 90s to early 2000s was REALLY pushing it to "just in the nick of time" territory). And many of those folks in my experience are in "meh" marriages. A few are miserable and stay together for the kids; a good 40% of them split up after 5 to 10 years. They all insisted on continuing to work even after their child(ren) were born; mostly because they had to in order to keep up their lifestyles. And they weren't really happy with their husbands, either.

The important thing was marrying early.

Desiderius said...

"2) If you are smart you aren't having children 18-22 anyway so its a decent time to do it"

A fact no longer in evidence.

En-sigma said...

your fleet is lost, and your friends on the marriage moon will not survive...oh, I'm afraid the N count will be fully operational when your marriage minded friends arrive....

little dynamo said...

Can't speak the truth by starting with a Lie. "Women are being let down by the System?"

Uh, no. Women ARE the System. Kirstie, her Sisterhood, and her Male Enablers have demanded (and gotten) this very System of endless female entitlement and empowerment... and now here's pore Kirstie, telling us how oppressed she and "women" are by the very totalitarianism they created, vote for, and daily enforce!

The only ones letting down women are women themselves, along with the castrati that enables and enforces their Gynogulag. But hey, WOMEN hire and support those very "men." Guess that's the fault of the "system" too.

So, another example of why the matriarchy is not going to self-correct. It hasn't the vision, nor the courage, to look within honestly and place blame where it belongs. Without this, no correction, nor even mitigation, can ever occur. You can't fix something that everybody agrees is not broken.

Once before I die, I'd like to hear an American woman say: I was wrong. WE as Sisterhood were wrong. We forced an evil system upon others, and harmed, injured, and destroyed many persons, mostly males, in the process, and mostly it was done for purely selfish reasons. I am sorry and we are sorry. We promise never to do such terrible things again.

You can't fix anything, you can't move on, until you get to that point. And I'm over sixty, and have yet to hear my FIRST female admission. I've never head an American female say she was sorry... for anything! They cannot be,or do, wrong. Instead, we get Kirstie (tee hee) telling us how the "system" has "let women down." Yeah right.

Stickwick Stapers said...

Unfortunately, it seems we are destined to learn the same lessons over and over.

Even though I was very lucky to have had a healthy, beautiful baby after the age of 40, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. I'm going to raise my daughter with the notion that she ought to choose a good husband young, have kids by 25 at the latest, and then when the kids are older go to college if that's what she wants. That's what my mom did, and she wasn't any worse off for waiting to go to college when she was in her early 30s. She had a nice little career going by the time my brother and I were out of the house, and never felt like she was missing out on anything. The other way around is much more difficult, and more to the point, as Allsopp points out, the odds of having children later on are not favorable for most women.

hank.jim said...

Let's be real, women at 18 to 22 won't be getting married soon. She is advising for women to marry by 27. That's an improvement to what we're having now, which is women not considering marrying until after 29. We should as a rule say women should marry by 25. Men should reasonably consider marriage by 27 or 28. All I know when I was that age is I couldn't even if I wanted it. There were no available women. In other words, women took themselves out of the market either by their actions or their intentions.

There should be more traditional courtships and marriages, but while men can insist on it, women have to be open to it. I read countless articles like this where women do not demand exclusivity before sex, thus did not get it. You won't sleep yourself to a commitment and marriage. Minds are hard to change.

deti said...

"You won't sleep yourself to a commitment and marriage"

That might even be better than my response to the feminist bleat at the manosphere that "You're not entitled to sex".

That's true.

That said, women aren't entitled to commitment. Until she's married, no woman is entitled to a man's commitment, money, time, attention, resources, or sexual fidelity. And in my view, a woman's failures during marriage can lead to forfeiting a man's commitment.

brian said...

I don't know if it was because of my location or my gammaness, but I'm about the same age as you, deti. I don't remember seeing more than maybe 5-10% of girls in my cohort that even talked about marriage like it was a possibility, never mind something they aspired to.

Of course, my gammaness (only seen in hindsight) meant that even if they were there, I was never an option. But marriage just isn't something most of my peers talked about. College, drinking and sex was about it.

Anonymous said...

She is advising for women to marry by 27. That's an improvement to what we're having now, which is women not considering marrying until after 29.

Right. When she said 27, my first thought was, "Why wait until then?" But it is an improvement over the current thinking.

"You won't sleep yourself to a commitment and marriage"

One problem is that people used to, or at least think they did, which leads to today's parents not minding their daughters' "experimenting." I've talked about this before (I'm a bit younger than deti, but pretty much the same generation), and back then most people weren't virgins at marriage, but they weren't slutting around for years either. Other than the occasional one-night-stand, they didn't have sex until a relationship was pretty serious, and since they were at least open to marriage, if not actively pursuing it, regular sex did seem to lead to marriage a lot of the time. Instead of courtship -> engagement -> marriage -> sex -> pregnancy -> kids, it was more like dating -> sex -> engagement -> pregnancy -> marriage -> kids. The problem now is that people see their daughters hooking up with a "boyfriend" and assume it's pretty much the same process they went through in the 80s and 90s, so they'd be hypocrites to object, but it's something very different now.

Unknown said...

Oh, I'm sorry dear, but you're no longer a member of the Sisterhood of Gynosupremacy. Also, the Democratic Party has stripped you of your affiliation for acknowledging biological reality. But, its not too late, you can go back to the reeducation camp to repent your sins against Mother Gaea and Diana the Goddess of the Moon by purifying yourself with lesbians and putting men firmly behind you. And then you can truly become a Born Again Feminist and Holy Protector of small furry animals.
Seriously though, why is marriage a good thing. Even if women did marry earlier, they would still hold the Ballbusting hammer of Divorce in which she and her lawyers can divide your possessions and send you into poverty because she's no longer in Love and she thinks you've "drifted apart" or she just doesn't know who you are anymore. Simply put, if her fickle heart gets bored, your net worth clocks back to zero, and you get the privilege of paying for her to sleep with worthless bums with a giant stipend where your future income goes mostly to her, and if you're lucky a small amount is left to pay for beer and cigarettes.
Certainly fertility is an issue, but I find most men are more concerned by financial ruin and indebted servitude then any fertility problems. Fertility drugs are expensive, but won't ruin your life like Divorce, where she is represented by her lawyer, the judge and the court system and you get a counsel that tells you its all your fault.
Most women are about as stable as the San Andreas Fault. No fault divorce is a black check for her to take everything you have at any time after the conclusion of the Wedding Ceremony, also known as the Line of Death.

JLT said...

Cracked.com expert (aka a freelance comedy writer): 5 Uncomfortable Truths Behind the Men's Rights Movement

MichaelJMaier said...

I am so angry with myself for not telling my niece flat out "Do not have sex until you're married. EVER. God loves you and wants you to save yourself until you are safe within the confines of your new life with you husband. And any man that tries to convince you otherwise is an evil serpent, whispering lies in your ears so he can use you as a cum dumpster."

The Original Hermit said...

I got married at 23, my wife was 21, first kid less than a year later. My boomer parents got married at 21, first kid at 23. Apparently a few years ago my mom told my wife that we had gotten married too young. She wouldn't dare say a thing like that to me.

Dexter said...

Kirstie sure isn't very easy on the eyes...

Allsopp admits now that, as a girl in her early twenties, marriage was always her goal, “but then I realised that 22-year-old men didn’t want you to make them a shepherd’s pie.”

WTF? HELL YEAH, I want you to make me a shepherd's pie! Say that now, woulda said it at 22.

And the strident response....


Helen Fraser, Chief Executive of the Girls' Day School Trust, said: "University education is incredibly important for girls. It's the end point of everything we do in our schools so we would be extremely disappointed if girls left school at 16 and tried to find a flat funded by their mother and waited for the nice boyfriend to turn up.
"People deserve to aspire to having both a fulfilling career and a happy family life. That's what men take for granted and girls who leave university at 22 should not be told by anybody that they have to decide between a career or a relationship and a children.

Girls deserve to have a career and a family, got that?

(Cue Clint Eastwood saying, "deserve's got nothing to do with it.")

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Robert What? said...

I'm an older guy (late 50s) and I see the beautiful twenty-something daughters of friends working stressful jobs, going for advanced degrees, etc. It's really sad. Some are already cruising towards the wall. When the opportunity arises in conversation I will delicately remind them of the increased difficulty of having children in their 30s especially if they want more than one. Not only that but stress decreases a woman's fertility even more. They think they have all the time in the world and the right guy will magically appear at the right time.

GAHCindy said...

The problem with having the career come later (not really a problem, IMO, but for feminist types) is that once a woman has a baby or two, she's very likely to become attached to the idea of staying home with it. If girls start using their fertile years to actually be fertile...well, bybye, feminism. They need women old, alone, and bitter to keep things going.

Marissa said...

Apparently a few years ago my mom told my wife that we had gotten married too young.

Even your own mother will initiate the "whispers" to your bride. Insane.

The problem with having the career come later (not really a problem, IMO, but for feminist types) is that once a woman has a baby or two, she's very likely to become attached to the idea of staying home with it.

I think the idea is to get your degree after you homeschool, which might end at last child's age 13 - 17 (I know some homeschoolers send their kids to high school). I don't know why more women don't use the correspondence style of schooling - it might take years but you'll still get it done by the time the kids grow up.

T.L. Ciottoli said...

@Michael Maier

While I'm sure your mother possesses redeeming qualities, she acted like a complete and total cunt in saying that to your beloved wife, in spreading that poison, which was based on NOTHING but her own measly, little, self-absorbed, disgustingly prideful and arrogant, severely limited outlook on life. How dare she judge, in absolute terms, your entire marriage. Does she possess the ability to see how things "would have worked" or how things will turn out in the end? Will she be saying the same thing when her grandchild or great-grandchildren may be taking care of her as a invalid old lady? She knows zilch about how things could've, should've, or would've. And she needs to be reminded of that. Clearly with emotive force.

Cunt. And make sure she knows it. Make sure she knows you found out and that if she doesn't hold her tongue then you all will have the coldest and most formal of relationships and that is it.

Again, you need to confront her on it, including outing her in front of your father. She needs to know that your wife is far more loyal to YOU than she is to your mother or the conspiratorial women's liberation front. And your mother needs to know that you can see through her shit and when she gets all manipulative and crazy, you will put her down like the man you are. Like you're supposed to. And make sure your father knows that if he doesn't do his job to keep her in line, you will.

It will not go down well, it will be awkward. But your mother will have learned her lesson and likely never, ever, ever dare say anything negative and nasty to your wife ever again. As it should be.

MichaelJMaier said...

@ Vashine, check your privilege, errrr... reading ability. :)

I agree with the gist of what you've said... but not my mom.

Though, trust me, she more than enough of her own issues.

Kirk Parker said...


" I don't know why more women don't use the correspondence style of schooling"

If you're interested in the limited range of degrees they offer (education, business, IT, nursing) Western Governers University is a great, pure-online option: http://www.wgu.edu/

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