Saturday, May 3, 2014

The height preference

Never apologize for whatever your requirements in women are. If a woman attempts to take issue with it, ask her if she'll go out with your five-foot tall friend. Chances are she won't, not even if he is a millionaire doctor with an Olympic medal who writes bestselling novels on the side:
 LYNN SHERR: [voice-over] We recruited other men about the same age as David (5'6", Stu 5'0" and Rob 5'3", but taller. We asked them all to dress in jeans and a sweater, then we did something cruel. We put them in lineups, five at a time, behind a two way mirror. The men couldn't see or hear what was going on in the next room. That's where we invited groups of women to look at the men and choose a date. In this case, we wanted to see if anyone would pick 5'3" Rob. When Andrea told us women like doctors, we gave him an M.D. Their choice?

2nd WOMAN: Andrew.

3rd WOMAN: I would say Matt, I think.

LYNN SHERR: [voice-over] No Rob. We piled on some more assets. We said, besides being a doctor, he was also a best selling author, and champion skier who had just built his own ski house. PGPH [interviewing] Does that effect your choices?

4th WOMAN: He's still short.

LYNN SHERR: [voice-over] Then we gave Rob a promotion. We made him chief of staff at a prestigious hospital. PGPH [interviewing] Who would you pick?

4th WOMAN: Him.

5th WOMAN: Andrew's probably the closest to who I'd pick.

6th WOMAN: I'd pick Matt.

7th WOMAN: Jeffrey, the pilot.

LYNN SHERR: [voice-over] What would it take? Now we said Rob was also a gourmet cook who loves children.

8th WOMAN: Oh, definitely I would take him in a minute, then. The height, no problem.

9th WOMAN: I wouldn't, because I don't think I'd want short, little kids.

LYNN SHERR: [voice-over] Well, at least someone liked Rob. But if it was this harsh for him at 5'3", what would it take to get a date for Stu at just 5 feet? First we made him an up and coming actor.

2nd WOMAN: No.

3rd WOMAN: No.

4rd WOMAN: Not.

LYNN SHERR: Then we said Stu had made millions by age 25.

10th WOMAN: No.

11th WOMAN: No.

12th WOMAN: Not for me.

LYNN SHERR: Nothing worked. PGPH [interviewing] How come nobody picked Stu?

13th WOMAN: He's too short.

LYNN SHERR: He's too short? PGPH [voice-over] We asked if there was anything we could add to make Stu irresistible.

14th WOMAN: Maybe the only thing you could say is that the other four are murderers.

15th WOMAN: Right, are convicted of some crime.

14th WOMAN: Child molesters.
Keep in mind these are the same women who won't hesitate to try to get on your case because you insist on a woman who isn't fat or flat. Whether you are short or not, their iron-clad preferences mean they simply don't have a leg to stand on.


Eric Wilson said...

Haha. There's this girl I've been seeing who is like 5'8" and 125lbs. I've been telling her she needs to lose weight. She's cute as it is, so it's not like if she doesn't it's a dealbreaker. But man. Everytime it comes up, her hamster starts sprinting.

It makes me think that a good nuclear opener would just be to walk up to a girl and tell her that she needs to lose 5/10lbs before I can talk to her.

LTD said...

Seriously? At 5'8" and 125#, she's almost underweight. Unless she has zero muscle tone or some other abnormality (like a missing limb), I can't imagine she needs to lose weight.

LP2021 Bank of LP Work in Progress said...

Speaking of the 1990's that I hated so much.

One of the worst most hideous thoughts that ever crossed my sick mind was the temptation of taking the 5'3 man who might be a few years older than me and probably better than me but making him my slave. I could never pull that with a taller stronger man, he'd smite me to help me understand my sick mind is not going to control him. Being 5'5, the 5'3 man might not overpower me

LP2021 Bank of LP Work in Progress said...

A man that towers over me isn't a threat but there is mostly no chance of playing him even if I had IQ points over him, there are just some lines that are not crossed. That is of one of them.

deti said...

Short men and tall women have it pretty rough when it comes to attraction. One of the non-negotiables for most women is "he has to be taller than me in 2 inch heels". The taller the better. Taller men are viewed as more intelligent, more competent, stronger, and more dominant. So it is with political candidates: the taller(est) candidate will have an edge, especially with women.

The non-negotiable with men is "she has to be physically attractive to me. She has to be at or above my attraction floor".

Harambe said...

Tell me about it. I'm 5'9" (which is short by Afrikaner standards) and not even winning the Taekwondo British Open championships in my division or playing rugby at provincial level could get me poonani. I was lucky enough to change schools after grade 10. Somehow the rumour spread in this new, fancy school that I was a bad-ass, having come from a school with a bit of a reputation and sporting a crew cut and an attitude. Strangely, this was like catnip to the upper-class girls I was exposed to. It also helped that the rest of the guys weren't tall freaks of nature.

deti said...

Seems to be no sense in whining about women's nonnegotiables.

I just wish women would stop complaining about men's nonnegotiables. That "whining" comes from women in the following forms:

1. The (women's) "Fat Acceptance" movement
2. "You men need to look at a woman's 'inner beauty'."
3. Christian/churchian entreaties, demands, and shaming directed at men who don't want to date/marry ugly women, plain women, socially retarded women, barren women, or sluts

Anonymous said...

Keep in mind these are the same women who won't hesitate to try to get on your case because you insist on a woman who isn't fat or flat.

Are you sure that these (the quoted women) are the same women? Not all are shrill feminists with hyperactive hamsters.

As for Stu, what if he was a successful actor?

deti said...


When it comes to demanding a taller man, AWALT. Unless she CANNOT be like that.

The photo you linked is of Danny DeVito and his wife, Rhea Perlman. Perlman is an example of a woman who cannot be "like that". (Required disclaimer follows) While I am sure she has many good attributes (end disclaimer), Perlman is a physically unattractive woman and thus had low sexual market value. Physically unattractive women are much like most men in the SMP -- they take what they can get. Beggars can't be choosers and all that.

From a purely physical standpoint, DeVito is short, bald and unattractive. His SMV is roughly on a par with his wife's. Assortative mating rules. But DeVito draws most of his appeal and SMV from his persona and personality. He projects a personality which is much larger and more interesting than his body habitus admits.

deti said...


Your post is another example of trying to use exceptions to disprove the rule; when the exceptions in fact prove the rule.

LibertyPortraits said...

From here on out I will give my utmost respect to any short guy with a mildly attractive women. He can be the perfect provider but he is [i]damned[/i] because of his height ("I don't want short kids" that kind of comment makes me believe in evolution psychology).

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I knew it was bad for short guys, but not that bad. Ouch.

I'm almost exactly average height for an American male, so I haven't had much trouble with this; but there was one woman I met online who seemed crazy about me, came to my place for our first date, was undressed within minutes -- but all the while she was working up a freak-out because I turned out to be a half-inch shorter than her. (It didn't help that I answered the door barefoot.) You'd think tall girls would be less concerned about height, since they don't have as much choice, but in my experience they seem extra sensitive about it.

Anonymous said...

You'd think tall girls would be less concerned about height, since they don't have as much choice

Tall girls don't have as much choice because they're concerned about height. It's not that shorter guys aren't willing to go out with them.

Bob said...

"Short men and tall women have it pretty rough when it comes to attraction. One of the non-negotiables for most women is "he has to be taller than me in 2 inch heels""

At 5'7", this is really what makes me rage. I not only have to be taller than a woman, but SEVERAL inches taller, AND that's on top of whatever height she is in heels or other stupidly irrelevant shoes.

I've actually had girls who are about 5'3" or something say "no, you're too short", purely because of this, and it does my head in due to it's stupidity. With all the shit they spout at the slightest lil preference I may have, they put fucking shoes above me, stupid, lifeless irrelevant fucking shoes. It also doesn't help that I'm not a natural full on arsehole / criminal either, at least that would supplant the height with attitude.

From what I've heard it seems even for girls at 5ft, a bloke at 6ft is minimum for them, this seems to be the "magic" number for most. And besides the stupidity of putting shoes at higher importance than a worthy male, they also don't realise the idiocy of what happens when ALL of them look for blokes who are 6ft+:

"Where are all the good guys?"...

I'd have thought evolution would have bred out this stupidity by now. I've seen some 6ft+ guys who were beta (my stepdad is one of them, and ended up paying for me for most of his life. Fortunately he now has his own biological child with my mother), but still have no problem attracting women, purely because of the mandatory height.

Another thing is that women flip out at my preferences, which are just that, preferences. It doesn't mean I won't date a lass who doesn't bang on meet one of them (if they're as good as, or better in other ways), just that I might PREFER one thing over another when given the choice. Whereas with women the height thing isn't even a preference, it's a REQUIREMENT. A completely shallow, irrelevant one at that.

LP2021 Bank of LP Work in Progress said...

The overweight aspect is another problem. I am rejected as too thin from the same height or shorter than men. They view me as too breakable, I view some of them as self haters b/c they wont work out. But really all I want for all men is for them to be their own men, to be happy, healthy and wealthy according to their talents.

Another aspect of the situation is something at home, ballet studios are filled with plenty of waif women 16 to my oldest which clocks in as almost 34. The men there are gay, small or are tall but still very thin. They have the pro-ana/pro mia life down with a science.

Overall, it is diffcult to accept the shorter man b/c they have a chip on their shoulders for their height when they have plenty of youth to be thankful for.

Anonymous said...

Tall girls don't have as much choice because they're concerned about height.

True. I guess that just makes the point that they aren't "concerned" about it in the sense that they're concerned about a guy having a good income; it's a gut-level instinct they have no control over. Tall girls can't learn to be attracted to short guys anymore than guys can learn to be attracted to fat girls.

Anonymous said...

From what I've heard it seems even for girls at 5ft, a bloke at 6ft is minimum for them, this seems to be the "magic" number for most.

The problem is that she wants not only a man she can look up to, but one that most other people have to look up to. She doesn't want to be escorted to parties by the shortest guy in the room -- or if you prefer evo-psych terms, she doesn't want to be protected by the smallest guy in the tribe.

I do think (for Americans at least) the "6-foot" limit gets chosen a lot just because it's a handy measurement. I'd bet if you looked at the success rate of men's dating profiles, there would be a much bigger gap between 5'11" and 6' than you'd see between 5'10" and 5'11" or 6' and 6'1". It's probably not so much that 6' is the magic height for attraction, but that it's an easy place to draw the line and call everything above that "definitely tall enough."

Kinda like if I set my weight maximum for girls at 120 pounds. It's not that there aren't 130-pound girls I'd be willing to date, but a limit of 120 is sure to filter out all the fatties. (Not that American dating sites would be so gauche as to ask actual weight; we get to guess whether "curvy" means "curvy" or "shaped like an apple, only pudgier.")

Random said...

This topic is tough for me, as a 4'10" handicapped man, and it's absolutely true.

Remember the lesson of the movie "Shrek":

You can be ugly, rude, violent, and disgusting--just don't be short.

Bob said...

"You can be ugly, rude, violent, and disgusting--just don't be short."

And that's the shit thing really. Pretty much everything else (including fatness) is controllable at least.

Someone can think one day, "I'm going to do something about that", and do so.

Not much one can do about height if not 6ft. No good really buying those shoes they list in that article, where when you take them off you'll suddenly drop a few inches and the lass is suddenly bigger than you, and not only repulsed due to that, but even more so that you needed to lie about it.

As it showed in that article it didn't even matter when they made the bloke a MILLIONAIRE, they still weren't bothered simply due to the height. I really would have liked to see if making them a criminal actually changed their opinions too, as I think that might be the only thing that would swing them a little.

Retrenched said...

This is why there are so many short man/overweight woman couples. The unattractive members of each sex tend to pair off with one another (assuming they marry at all).

Weouro said...

You have a group of women who don't know each other looking at what amounts to an image of tall and short men they can't interact with standing right next to each other and saying which one they prefer. It's mainly an abstraction--"I want a taller man." It's true in general and probably especially for Internet dating, but it's not as bad as all that in most real life situations.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

my father was five foot six, and my mom is 5 foot 2. He had a lot going for him just like Danny DeVito does as far as charisma personality and of course status, so it worked out pretty well. You also told me that its very good to marry a woman who is slightly taller than you in heels, because it if you walk into a room and your wife is slightly taller than you are and she is with you on your arm. You got something really good going on for you if you can break one of those very fundamental laws of attraction.

Unknown said...

And then there's Peter Dinklage

David The Good said...

I never realized how lucky I was to be tall. This truly sucks for my shorter friends.

Anonymous said...

Weouro makes a good point: women will shoot a man down in theory for attributes that wouldn't always stop them if they met a dominant man with that attribute in person. It's the same way with age: a girl who would claim she'd never date a guy 10 years older will have an affair with her 25-years-older college professor if his dominance and authority make her tingle just right.

I know one guy who's about 5'4" who was great with women (he's married now), but he had everything else: good-looking, athletic, confident, socially liked by everyone, etc. So as with age, you can overcome it if your SMV is high in every other way and you get out there and meet women in person. It probably makes online dating fairly useless, though; many girls would filter a guy like him out before even seeing his profile, just as they would a guy 20 years older.

ThirdMonkey said...

If you're short, take up a dangerous hobby. I played football, was in a band, made good grades: nothing. I started breaking colts and riding broncs in rodeos, and I couldn't beat them off with a stick. Bullriders, on average, are around 5'7". I never met one who was lonely on the weekends. You can whine, or up your SMV.

tz said...

I'm only 5'7, but I don't think there will be a problem for my woman to look up to me. Being on your knees tends to negate bone length.

Seriously. Having a bunch of - say Scalziesque men of varying heights milling around on the other side of a mirror oversimplifies things. Beta orbiter doctor?

Consider the following lineup:

6' metrosexual - ooh.
5'7 nerd. shrug.
5'3 biker with scars and tattoos. oooooh.
5'1 paricide or convicted killer - shouts through the glass "Are you married?"
4'11 in a straitjacket and other restraints and Hannibal Lecter mask, "cannibalistic serial killer" Woman throws herself through the glass, and exclaims "I'm into bondage!" while attempting (and probably succeeding at) rape.

This might be a good CHesque game experiment.

tz said...

and worth repeating here considering 3rd Monkey's comment. Also remembering the old "Tailhook" scandal.

When testosterone has gone into hiding, they will figure out why they needed it. It will reappear after the fools are dead - which should be quick enough, though it will be slow and painful for the deceadents.

PathosAvenger said...

Bogey said...

How about 12" penis. Any takers? Ladies?

"Maybe for one night, but he's still too short."

Retrenched said...

@ Thirdmonkey

Yeah, expendability is a big time DHV for men. Chicks dig guys with dangerous hobbies, jobs and lifestyles. [Which probably explains a lot of the sexual appeal of thugs, dope dealers and sociopaths – women are turned on by men who are willing to take huge risks to get what they want.]

But you don't have to break the law to get a girl to think you're interesting and cool. Just take up skydiving, motorcycle riding - hell, just buy a gun and take her to a shooting range for the first date. [Especially if she's a blue state girl who dislikes guns or is afraid of them.]

Cadders said...

I'm 5 foot six and I've never found the height thing to be as big an issue as seems to be made out. Maybe because 5'6'' still gets into enough women's 'acceptable' range.

Being short definitely raises (heh) the bar to entry - as a man you have to bring other things to the table to get a ticket to play. But as men we always have to bring something to the table.

I'm glad Deti mentioned the problems tall women experience as well. The 'hightism' we accuse women of often works both ways. I have simply never found a women taller than me who passes the dick-twitch test. I can appreciate her beauty, her sexiness etc. - but there is little desire to boink her - especially compared to the idea of having sex with an equivalent women who is shorter then me. We are simply self-selecting each other out of contention. And yes, I know NAMALT.

Taller men are assumed to be more intelligent, make more money, be more dominant than shorter men. I believe some some studies show this. But the unspoken corollary is that shorter men are less in these areas. Which mean that as a short man, others (men and women) have lower expectations of me. I found quite early on that at work, when I performed competently, people (who didn't know me) were surprised, when I did a good job, they were amazed and when I (occasionally) turn in an exceptional piece of work, it has been questioned if it was actually me who performed it.

The same dynamic works with women. Once you are at the table, run some good game and you will have (at least) some women's attention. Not necessarily because you are all that - it's just that you are not what they were expecting. The play is then yours to loose.

And once you have started to build attraction, the insistence that the man be 6 foot quickly gets rationalized into 'he must be shorter than me'. The women will make you taller in their heads - they do the work for you.

Cadders said...

Annnnnnnnd.....of course that last sentence should be;

And once you have started to build attraction, the insistence that the man be 6 foot quickly gets rationalized into 'he must be taller than me'. The women will make you taller in their heads - they do the work for you.

Clearly sometimes I get my mucking words fuddled. It's a short guy thing. Apparently.

Joe A. said...

Game is still powerful in the hands of shorties. My ex-boss would have been doomed without it. Always spiking his hair may have helped a little, too.

Anonymous said...

I'm 6'4". I never thought I had a height problem. Then one year, not too long after we were married, I opened a birthday present from my wife and it was a pair of dress shoes with two inch heels - basically platform shoes. They were very nice, probably the most expensive pair of shoes I've ever owned, but I looked at her and asked what she was doing. I felt like ducking through doorways wearing those. She's 6'0". She was a little sheepish, but she said she wanted me to be taller than her when she wore high heels.

For her birthday the next year I bought her a pair of 7" platform GoGo boots.

evilwhitemalempire said...

LP 999 Eliza writes: "One of the worst most hideous thoughts that ever crossed my sick mind was the temptation of taking the 5'3 man who might be a few years older than me and probably better than me but making him my slave."

"A man that towers over me isn't a threat but there is mostly no chance of playing him even if I had IQ points over him, there are just some lines that are not crossed. That is of one of them."
Have men gotten shorter (relative to women)?

I know that people (men AND women) have gotten taller but here I'm talking ratios.

If, in fact, the ratio of average male height to female height has gone down then, in light of Eliza's comments, perhaps there's an insight into how and why feminism happened.

vartank said...

Ha, I actually am 5'3 on the dot, and am really, really glad I discovered game. For one, women SAY a lot of things, most of them say they would never date a guy who lives with his parents, doesn't have a car, or is violent and aimless, and they do this all the time. 99% of women SAY they would never date a guy shorter than them, and *every* girl I've pulled has been taller than me, and I doubt I lucked into that 1%.

It does show that yes, women are hypocrites, yes, being fat is a character flaw while being short is out of your control. But the whole point of the red pill is to swallow shitty, uncomfortable truths sometimes. Knowing guys who have no game but are tall and good looking, take game every time. Hard work trumps wasted natural talent.

vartank said...

Also, the whole thing about taller girls thinking I can't "take them" is hilarious, I can deadlift over 400lbs and squat over 300, and they never think it's possible until I pick them up and carry them around. Another pro tip: if you are short as fuck, get strong.

PhantomZodak said...

height is an enormous obstacle if you try online dating. they won't even respond. and because every other short loser lies, they assume you are lying. i had a picture with a politician to prove my height but it's better to go offline & game them. online they will behave just like the girls in the experiment.

vartank said...

Largely that's true, Phantom, but still not impossible. I've pulled girls using OKC without having to hide my height. Although funny enough, last girl I banged from that site didn't even pay attention to my height, was surprised on our first date, and then got over it pretty quickly.

Revelation Means Hope said...

You want to watch that hamster get nuked, watch the movie about the wheelchair basketball team. And take a good luck at the women those team members have pulled, even while short and legless. They had attitude. Unshakeable confidence. Tattoos.

My brother is 6 inches taller than me. Guess which one of us was forced to develop game? I still feel short even though I'm 5'10". The difference is that I never let it bother me anymore and that inner game is worth far more. It would be interesting to be 6 inches shorter and 6 inches taller for a week just to experiment with how differently people react.

Anonymous said...

the whole point of the red pill is to swallow shitty, uncomfortable truths sometimes.

Yep. You've got a lot better chance of winning the game if you know what the rules are. If you shove a 5'3" guy out onto a basketball court and he thinks dunking is the only way to score cause that's all they teach in basketball school, he's doomed. But whisper in his ear "hey, there's a thing called a 3-point jump shot nobody talks about" and suddenly he's got a chance. Won't necessarily be easy, but at least he has options.

Revelation Means Hope said...

One last thing for either of the two shortest: Have a "ringer" woman in the group looking through the window. At a predetermined interval, have her say something like "Hey, isn't that ?" "He's HOT!"

she can give a little blurb about how her friends watch this show that he is on, and that he's been in a couple movies in other countries. Preselection would have worked wonders, much more than the other crap they tried.

CarpeOro said...

"Overall, it is diffcult to accept the shorter man b/c they have a chip on their shoulders for their height when they have plenty of youth to be thankful for. "

Perhaps a bit of the hamster there doing projection and giving an excuse to ignore short guys. At 5'5", most of my friends have been far taller than me, and I've never been accused of having a chip on my shoulder. Looking back, I really can't recall many short guys with this "chip" we are often accused of. Maybe I've never felt like I had one because I knew I was as physically strong as (or stronger) than most guys of average height. My problems with women all stemmed from being a nice guy with no male role model after 15 when my father died. I was raised to treat women like it was the 50s when I had to deal with the 80s version. Not fun. Game blogs would have been helpful.

insanitybytes22 said...

"Perhaps a bit of the hamster there doing projection and giving an excuse to ignore short guys."

I suspect the desire for height has a lot to do with biology and is simply a knee jerk reaction. I imagine if you put women passively behind a two way glass and asked men to choose, they'd go straight for the biological pulls, too. It's unfortunate, being men you'd also likely be criticized for being so shallow and accused of being sexist.

In general women like to feel smaller, "feel" being the key word here. Women don't like to admit that and the world certainly tells us we shouldn't, but there is a biological pull operating at least on a subconscious level that makes us well aware that men tend to protect those they perceive as smaller, weaker, than them.

jlw said...

Height is so incredibly important and yet people poo-pooh it because it's something that is difficult to significantly modify. In our self-help-platitude, everybody-is-a-winner society, people would rather cut their own arms off than admit that someone is screwed. Here's a hint people: SOME GUYS ARE SCREWED WHEN IT COMES TO GETTING WOMEN THEY, IN TURN, THINK ARE ATTRACTIVE!

Now, before you say, "Well, so-and-so is short and gets women" remember to ask yourself this: is shortness his only problem? Because if it is, or nearly so, than, yeah, short guys have it tougher but will succeed if they try and try again.

However, and no one ever says this, when height issues cluster with other issues, eventually, past a certain point, a guy is screwed. I've always been interested in the sociological/psychological/physiological factors that determine what men remain alone forever. I believe there are roughly nine major factors that could lead a man to being unable to meet a compatible woman.

The Physical Factors:

1) Disability (Fairly obvious. For example, over 80% of spinal cord injury victims never marry.)

2) Height (Study after study has determined shorter men are less likely to marry, date, etc.)

3) Unattractiveness (Rarely studied outside of empirical observations, but I think we can all agree that an attractive man/boy will have an easier time meeting an acceptable partner. Age goes here, especially when wooing someone much younger.)

The Mental Factors:

4) Mental illness or retardation (Again, fairly obvious.)

5) Shyness (Gilmartin, for all his odd beliefs about astrology and so forth, was the first to really examine the small but definitely present group of "loveshy" men. Nobody to my knowledge had hitherto considered these cast offs because, I suspect, no one really cared. They were, and remain, essentially well-behaved surplus men.)

6) High Standards: Everybody gets somebody if they are willing to take anybody. Most people have standards, however. Add standards to an omega dregs and it's over.

The Social Factors

7) Geography (Fairly obvious: a man who lives in a lumber camp in northern MN, or in the outback, or the highlands, is just not going to run into many women. This was common in the wild west days.)

8) Income/Resources

9) Socialization/Hobbies (This problem would include males who, while not being necessarily stupidly misogynistic or shy, spend their time working in an all male-environment and who have "male" hobbies: hiking, camping,
wargaming, reading military history, playing computer games.)

What I've seen is that those men who remain alone can cite multiple numbers above as being applicable, whereas a short man or a poor man without some of the other problems is much more likely to connect eventually. For example: I could never have connected with a suitable MOTOS because of: 1, 3, 6 (high standards), 8, and 9.

Also, notice that some of these can be fixed, while some cannot.

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