Monday, December 30, 2013

The desexualized church

Deti of JustFourGuys warns Christian men of some of the perils that may await the man who looks for a Christian wife at church:
–The “Desexualized Zone”.    Women increasingly expect churches and church functions to be places of freedom from “unwanted” interactions. Translated, this means women expect unattractive men to know their place and not to ask women out or otherwise talk to them at church.  They expect men either to avoid them completely, or to be eunuchs, existing to serve them.  There have been reports in the manosphere of women actually complaining to pastors about “unattractive” men asking them out at church. It is as if women expect pastors and church staff to punish and rebuke men for “sexual harassment” at churches, merely because in a social situation they acted like men and pursued someone/something they wanted.   Of course, none of this applies to attractive men, who are never the subject of complaint or sanction no matter what they do.

–“Reformed” sluts.    (Not to be confused with actual, genuine reformed sluts, who really are trying to improve their lives.  This concerns the faux reformed.)   Every church has these as well.   These are women in their late 20 and early 30s with decent jobs and colorful pasts.  All have had multiple sex partners.  Most have never been married and have no children. Most show up at church, or are returning to church, after a parade of alpha sex partners, an abortion, contracting a sexual disease, a bad breakup with a long term boyfriend or fiancé; or occasionally after a brief failed first marriage.   She’s had her “come to Jesus” moment, she sees “the error of her ways”, she’s “tired of the games and the playas”, and she “wants to do it the right way this time”.  

Characteristics of a “reformed” slut:

1.   Speaks fluent Christianese.
2.   Extremely defensive about her past.
3.   Refers to her past as a series of “mistakes”.
4.   Has at least one alpha relationship in her past.
5.   Excuses, explains, justifies and defends her past.
6.   Quick to defend sluts.
7.   Actively looking for a husband, and enlisting the help of anyone and everyone she can find in this task.
8.   Her taste in men has markedly changed.  She used to like motorcycle riders and investment bankers.   Now she’s decided she really, really likes nerdy accountants and guys who sing in church choirs.

When Mark Driscoll and other pastors talk about “great” women in their churches who are over 30 and who really want to get married, these are the women they’re talking about.   These women are using church as a desperate last resort to find a husband.   Pastors and other women tout the “reformed” sluts as prime marriage material.   It’s done as a well-intentioned gesture to get these women married off.  It’s treacherous for men because too many of those marriages are destined for failure or sexless misery. 
I have to defer to Deti on this one, since I have literally never met a woman I dated at church. As an alternative strategy, I once suggested this:
  1. Meet a woman at a bar or night club
  2. Ask her if she's interested in attending church with you
One of my brothers took that advice a bit too literally. My thought was that he could ask a woman if she was up for attending church after going out with her a few times. My idiot brother instead walked up to a girl he didn't know in a nightclub and asked her if she wanted to go to church with him. She said yes, less because she was interested in church than the fact that he is extremely handsome.

But hey, it worked. And the punchline? They're still married.


Trust said...

I just commented on the last thread that i've wondered if feminism is, or is a demonination of, the false religion of Revelation. Stay away from that woman, her bloodshed, her fornication, etc. You were ahead of me.

I'm not saying feminism is "the woman" of revelation, but as one of the bloodiest and promiscious doctrines in history, it seems to fit.

Eric Wilson said...

Exactly. I've never dated anyone for more than a couple months who wouldn't go with me to my very conservative (WELS) church.

There were no ultimata, just: I'm going to church. Eventually they would come with me more or less regularly. Make your mission your mission and maintain frame, I guess.

Trust said...

@: "When Mark Driscoll and other pastors talk about “great” women in their churches who are over 30 and who really want to get married, these are the women they’re talking about."

These are the women who make their husbands live celibate for years, cheat on him, end up divorced with huge alimony and child support going to the ex wife who is now the proud owner of the family home (while he owns the mortgage), then the pastors who pitched for these great women will blame *drum roll please* an unattentive husband.

Reminds me of this:

21 “Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God’s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ‘Lord, Lord, by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.’ 23 Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’" Matthew 7:21-23

Anonymous said...

My thought was that he could ask a woman if she was up for attending church after going out with her a few times. My idiot brother instead walked up to a girl he didn't know in a nightclub and asked her if she wanted to go to church with him.

Your brother may be an idiot, but that strikes me as a really, really good idea. I can't think of a more efficient way to do a lot of fast approaches with minimal emotional investment, in a way that selects for civilization-friendly women. If I ever fix my crazy then I think this will be my go-to option, at least to start out

Plus, you get to see them make a bunch of funny faces. Reminds me of that post by Roissy about doing one more pickup attempt before checking out of a club by opening a girl with "do you want to go home with me?" Couldn't find the post, it's from ages past.

vartank said...

So quick question: what advice do your have for the secular Conservative red piller? I feel like a man without a country here, even though I love this blog and advice you give.

Res Ipsa said...

I think the type of church you are in will play a role in the type of single women that are in it. If you are in a modern American "seeker friendly" church, that has a very informal entertainment based service, that focuses on "building up" and "feeling good" about "Jesus Christ my lord in dockers" then you are going to see a significant number of sluts. There is a reason that mega churches are popular. Even if it isn't a mega-church, but it is one of the largest, most popular churches in your town, you need to watch out. The women are attending because the message, format, and "feel" of the place appeals to them. Being in that kind of church doesn't make them a Christian, it makes them a emotion junkie with a bible and a taste for praise and worship music.

If a woman is over 24 years old and still single, there is a reason for it. If she isn't finishing up med school or some other worthy use of her time, chances are the reason she is single is that she isn't marriage material. Why be the chump who finds out?

If you are in a church that has a specific set of doctrine that it is very strict about, the pastor is anti-sin, pro traditional family, there is a high degree of relationship and accountability among the members, maybe the services are still in Latin, maybe the women are all expected to wear dresses and cover their heads, in other words its a church that not a lot of Americans would be attracted to, you might be in slightly better situation with any single females you encounter.

Guys, Christian men who want to get married have a solid family and home life with a wife an kids, are a minority. If this describes you, you are in the top 10% of men. Act like it. It is up to you to qualify the females. If they don't measure up, kick them to the curb and move on to the next one. Don't be needy. There is no reason to panic. Be aware that you may have a lot of sluts to sort through. Get sorting.

All of that said, after I returned to my faith, a man who was a Christian camp director and an elder in his church set me up on a blind date at a Sunday night church service. That was 18 years, a couple of kids, two houses and three dogs ago.

Res Ipsa said...

So quick question: what advice do your have for the secular Conservative red piller?

It should take you less than one date to discover if she is a slut. If that's what you want, you have achieved your objective, congratulations. If that's not what you want, move on to the next girl. The traditional get married to a nice girl have kids and a house with a white picket fence is basically dead in America. You have to find a girl that wants this lifestyle but who wants it apart from religion. I'm sure that there are such girls but I would think they would be rarer than a religious girl. Perhaps you would encounter them around some of the older conservative secular colleges.

Revelation Means Hope said...

Posted that Four Guys article on Facebook this morning. Always fun to see what crawls out of the woodwork, although so far I've only had comments and likes from friends who'd agree (and repost themselves). One is a lay pastor (ie. he works full-time at a regular job and is an unpaid pastor).

I have a certain amount of female friends who are going to see themselves in one or another of the examples, thanks to solispsism and the fact that certain of them fit the examples as if written for them specifically.

To the conservative secularist: keep reading. Why would you need specific advice? Just skip over the church stuff. Good, solid stuff. And if not, plenty of links on the right side which are solid as well.

Royal Tenenbaum said...

"When Mark Driscoll and other pastors talk about “great” women in their churches who are over 30 and who really want to get married, these are the women they’re talking about."

Exactly. Dalrock had a good post about how Driscoll blames men for single mothers. As if these women are victims. So much for accountability.

Not really related, but a friend and I used a great opener with an asian 8 once. We were out drinking at some downtown Orlando bar and he told said Asian girl "Tell my friend he needs to go to church tomorrow morning." She hit the bait, playful arguments ensued between the two of us, and it was easy pickings from there. It's really a great opener.

Brad Andrews said...


You have a huge challenge, since you have nothing common to truly base beliefs on. It is hard enough when both parties claim a commitment to Jesus. I can't see how you could have more success without that.

Note that starting out right doesn't guarantee right in the long run. You have to keep working things, even years into a marriage. We hit our 25th anniversary last summer and I still have to work at things. No magic bullets here, even if you prequalify correctly.

Sojourner said...

Haha, your brother may very well have stumbled upon the answer for guys who are decent and just end up going to clubs for the heck of it (at 30 and recently divorced I felt like just getting out but at 32 I've decided I've had enough). Ironically church doesn't seem to be the place to meet women anymore. Which sucks because, while growing up in LA, I was raised with an old school mentality that just seems crazy hard to beat even in light of the reality of the city I live in. So when even the church can't seemingly provide decent women in the 25 to 27 age range (my range of choice but I'm not stuck with it) you start to get a little perturbed by it. Oh well, succeed at business, keep in shape and don't be an idiot, something will come up.

Crowhill said...

The larger problem is that churches simply aren't churches. It's clear that they're not interested in following Scripture.

I was in a Christian group in college -- back in the 80s -- that was very serious about following Scripture. We didn't have any of these problems.

Anonymous said...

Obligatory links:

Haley’s Halo, where the evangelical Haley routinely sneers at the absurdity of the young-adult Boundless blog, the “gift of singleness” and other post facto responses to hopeless Churchian singles.

PMAFT's "Sunday Morning Nightclub" post (first in a series) where he discusses picking up promiscuous hypergamous girls at church. He posits that he is doing the betas in the church a great service by taking up the attention of foolish girls who would otherwise prey on them.

New Hombre said...

This is a great post.

I met and married one of these reformed sluts at church. I went against my gut, bought into the "do not judge", "no one is perfect", "all are forgiven", "God will restore what the locust has eaten" ...

Complete and utter disaster.

Past sexual history is one of the absolute best measures to judge a future wife. Period.

A side thought, I think the church encourages poor behavior by celebrating prodigals above all others in the church. A front man that has tried to live righteously his entire life just does not sell as well as they guy who has a more dramatic transformation story to tell. The unfortunate side effect is that youth see this and are encouraged to sin.

Revelation Means Hope said...

Linking to that article on my Facebook page has certainly yielded a couple interesting comments (and 2 linked posts). Bit by bit, we'll get the truth out there.

Top two criticisms? The author seems a little bitter, and NAWALT. I expected a little more vitriol from some of my female friends, but...

Beefy Levinson said...

How do Catholic girls friendzone a dude? "Oh, you'd make a really good priest."

His Lordship said...

He posits that he is doing the betas in the church a great service by taking up the attention of foolish girls who would otherwise prey on them.

And doubtless, the woman who reclines on her sofa stuffing her face with sweets all the day long is doing her husband a service by preventing him from eating them and growing fat himself.

Ah, the pungent odour of hamsters...

Anonymous said...

I was attending a Catholic church last week and one of the readings was from Paul: "women, submit to your husbands."

When the priest gave the homily, he actually joked about how that passage wasn't applicable today. "Wives, submit to your husbands!" he said mockingly, and the congregation laughed.

And the catholics wonder why they're losing men left and right.

Anonymous said...

"So quick question: what advice do your have for the secular Conservative red piller? I feel like a man without a country here, even though I love this blog and advice you give."

It might help if you were more exact in what question you are asking.

Do you mean where to find a secular red-pilled wife? You don't have it much harder than the church men do, and maybe easier because a lot of secular women who are NOT marriage material will wear it on their sleeves in their behavior, spending, political causes, etc, while churchy slutty women have at least some kind of subterfuge going on. The short answer: approach a lot and screen hard. Be like the investment banks and consultantcies who hire lots of entry-levels and cut most of them within 18 months.

The country is ~70% religious, which leaves a large bounty of nonreligious women. Plenty of them want to have rewarding relationships with men and not just ride the carousel. If you are willing to have your wife be a believer and have a "mixed marriage" like AThol Kay has, that opens up even more possibilities. I've not seen that mixed-faith or faith+no-faith couples have any elevated risks beyond same-faith couples (who on the whole have comporable divorce rates to the body politic writ large).

Do you mean how to go about life as a red-piller without wanting to strangle all the blue pill fools you run into on a daily basis? That I've found is a combination of holding your tongue when decorum or self-interest dictates it and letting a select crew of people into the Red Pill tent. I've brought a number of friends and coworkers into the fold, which isn't hard because once someone is ready to admit that the mainstream worldview is wrong, they find the truth an easy item to buy. All I have to do is give a sample.

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