great work with the Alpha Game blog, it's one of several Game-related blogs that I follow and I have to say that your rather unique perspective on things is most interesting to read. I'm writing today because I've been wrestling with questions about approaching and I'd really appreciate your views on the subject.First, let me set one thing straight. Again. If one is a genuine Sigma, there is no need to come to me for advice on success with women. As with the socio-sexual Alpha, a Sigma is, by definition, successful with them. An introvert who is not successful with women is usually a Gamma.
You and I are actually pretty similar in a lot of ways. We're both of higher than average intelligence (though objectively, you're a lot smarter than I am); we're both Austrolibertarians; we both harbour a dislike, even contempt, for other people beyond a certain point; we both intensely dislike unwanted physical contact; and we both score INTJ every time on the MBTI tests. On your ALPHA-OMEGA scale, I fall on the Sigma side, as you do.
There are also significant differences. I score even higher on introverted traits than you do, and you would know, as few others do, just how difficult interactions with other people can be as a result. It's not that I lack self-confidence or the ability to speak with other people, it's that I find small talk tiresome and frustrating. Small talk with women, in particular, can be infuriating in this regard- one can only take so much of listening to women in the office nattering on about "The Bachelor" before being tempted to end it all using the nearest sharp object. Yet, as you, and Roosh, and several others have pointed out, the ability to maintain a strong frame while generating an emotional, rather than logical, conversation, is critical to success with women.
This is an aspect of my life where I have fallen far short of my own expectations. I resolved some time ago to take corrective action, but reading theory only gets one so far.
So, here are my questions for you. How does a self-confident, bookish INTJ move past our natural dislike of other people? Given that bars, Starbucks coffee shops, and other loud environments are kryptonite to most INTJs and therefore to our game, what is the best place for an INTJ to start approaching in order to gain practice and experience? Given that INTJs, more than any other type, prefer living in our heads to living among people, how does an introvert get past the severe drain caused by social interaction in order to maintain a strong frame without having to do a lot of talking?
Second, it's not necessary to spend much time with other people in public in order to meet all the women one could possibly require. The key is to maximize one's efforts while one has the energy to do so. The introvert doesn't have the time to wait for "the right moment", he will run out of steam nine times out of ten before it arrives.
I have always favored a direct approach. Simply make eye contact with whoever is of interest to you. If a pretty woman maintains eye contact and smiles, or better yet, looks down and smiles, immediately go and talk to her. There is no need to go into some sort of mad jongleur routine in an attempt to impress and entertain her, the fact that she has already indicated her interest in you should be sufficient. Have your conversational objective in mind as you approach her, and once you have achieved it, smile, nod, and leave at the first opportunity.
It is always best to leave a woman with her hamster spinning. It can be your greatest advocate. And besides, how long do you actually want to sit and chit chat anyhow? I meet people easily everywhere I go and I seldom have to do much talking; remember that everyone's favorite subject is themselves. Two or three questions are all one should ever need to get the average woman's conversational motor off and running. And even the most tedious individual can be interesting when they are divulging hitherto unknown information.
52 comments:
You raised the issue, so I'll ask.
What is the 'looking down thing' that women do about anyway?
I see it everywhere and have for most of my life.
Like 'S;, I'm an INTJ. Your advice is sound. You get much further and much faster listening to women than you do talking. This is true in business as well. Successful selling is all about listening and aksing a few well-timed questions than about babbling on and on.
Isn't looking down a submission thing?
And I need to remember Vox' advice there... she does that, you move in. Unless, of course, she has a ring on, which happened to me here at work the other day. Dang it.
That's a fairly severe category failure on S's part, so it helped to correct that first. Definitely not sigma.
Even as a delta snowflake who aspires to omega, I've figured out enough to learn to talk about the Bachelor, for pity's sakes: it's the key to her emotional landscape. It is the empire of glass and noise whereby you can catch a tasty, everflowing wave on the chaos. It's the same wave you can catch to make a hasty exit when she spoils on you, too.
It is a very smooth shift from "Yeah, she's a little crazy but..." to "...but, yeah, she's crazy."
You don't even have to watch the show - make up a few names - He: "Oh, that Britney or whatever her name is such a psycho. I hope he sees through her in time to notice that sweet one, Clarissa or whatever." She: "You mean Chastity and MaryAnne?" He: "Oh yeah." She: "OMG! Did you hear what they said about her in People? Yadda yadda yadda."
If you don't want to hear about the Bachelor, just don't listen. It isn't like there are plastic surgeons running around making a killing off doing brain enhancements. Even intelligent women, aside from trained concubines, aren't exactly capable of sustaining intellectual conversations. Go to guys and books if you want to think about the significance of phi or something.
Smart guy like you ought to realize that you don't go to women to be stimulated that way.
Agreed. People make it too complicated at times. Just approach her. Put up the effort; it takes practice. She's the woman. You're the man. Don't be cowardly.
As a side question: is there any hope for an omega who attempts to practice Game?
FWIW, a woman's POV: If an attractive man who gives off an alpha vibe catches my gaze, I'm usually compelled to look downward, because I feel an emotional jolt. It just feels too challenging and brazen to hold his gaze. Probably a submission thing, as someone noted below.
Going through a divorce (no fault, she swore out a Protection from Abuse order with zero evidence, tried turning the kids against me - you know, "the norm"). Blogs like this have been an enormous help. How much?
This last Thursday, I was baptized. It's part of a whole transformation for me. So, I'm there with a 25 year old cutie (married) who I brought to Christ and we're assisting in each other's baptism. There's another woman there, a solid 8, maybe 8.5. Using eye contact, she gave an intense look then her eyes darted south. When I first saw her, I thought she was out of my league. However, I was hanging out with a hot young woman and, truth be told, I know I give off a strong vibe. Seeing her reaction to my eye contact, I knew I was in. Confidence shot up. Got her number, heading out for drinks at some point. She's a solid two points higher on the scale and over ten years younger than my ex. And firm, so firm.
Amen Anon.
The 1st thing I was taught at the beginning of my sales career was to STFU. That's not quite verbatim, but close. Being comfortable with active listening and silence are key to long term success. Too many sales people have diarrhea of the mouth and are great at talking themselves right out of a sale. This stuff works outside of sales as well. All communication is selling to a certain degree.
Oh, and I'm also an INTJ, though I'm on the border of ENTJ.
I can't tell you how much blogs, like this, have renewed my spirit after getting blindsided. Looking back, I was probably Alpha pre-marriage (paratrooper, great shape, successful with women, a ton of "It gets worse" stories that my friends never tire of hearing), but I needed to re-learn things.
Thanks, to all who write and share. Viva la Red Pill!
Thanks 'Stickwick'. I'll take clues anywhere I can get them.
Props for your insight.
Fox Alpha RTP!
I agree. A few questions from you just to get the information you need is key. The customer will usually tell you everything else you need to know about the application.
Know when to stop selling.
Read this; http://www.uchospitals.edu/news/2012/20120409-social-stress.html
There is a deep omega - RM - who is a rep on this site for self-improvement.
Although I don't think he can be called omega anymore, if you follow his progression, he's well on his way to a synthetic delta, if not beyond that.
Go to the beginning of RM's posts on Omega, and then work forward. His approach shows results:
Omega Posts
Keep in mind that, just as it is an advantage for the Pauper to play the Prince, it goes the other way, there are times when it works out for the Prince to play the Pauper. Anyone can learn from Game Theory.
Except Gammas.
OT I apologise, quick question for Markku and I don't know how to reach him. Markku, is there any resource that you are aware of that will give you advice if you have a software you would like to develop but you are not the IT person (just the concept)?
Sorry to post OT.
Carlotta
I have to agree here, I think my main reaction when a stranger stares at me in that way would be to look down. Total instinct. To my Husband I meet his gaze. I would say somewhat submission, but also I do not want to linger and give the guy the wrong idea.
If someone is stupid enough to do it in front of my Husband it stops the second they see him and I do notice that he will often check to see how I react LOL.
Carlotta
And when they look to the side it usually means they're not interested at all. It's always funny to me when I see attractive women, usually younger ones try to cover their faces or turn their heads completely to avoid making contact with the undesirables trying to sneak a glance.
Am I an oddball for actually enjoying talking to women? Or maybe just somewhat extrovert -- my Myers-Briggs "I" score was often kind of borderline. I've almost always found pretty women fun to talk to, unless they insist on expressing opinions opposite mine on important matters.
Carlotta, you are probably out of luck there. Software is extremely slow and therefore expensive to get developed. You would have to be lucky enough to find the person or small group (depending on how complex the idea is) who has only just learned enough programming and is now looking for the first serious project to add to his CV. Or, alternatively, if you have lots of money to invest and are willing to assume all the risk yourself. If you are willing to risk a five figure sum, then just contact any small software development house.
I'd say the chances of your idea turning into a profitable program are very small.
I think INTJs are attracted to game stuff because it's a way of framing things that make no sense to us naturally (women) and giving us a chance to make sense of it all (the SMP, hypergamy, etc.). My advice to fellow INTJ's:
Make it a "game" but just for yourself. Decide ahead of time what a win is for you. A number, a kiss, a slap in the face, it doesn't really matter. Compete against others, even if they aren't in on it. Embrace your inner sociopath and use each interaction as a little social experiment. It might help to not even think of them as people. It's a system that you're trying to learn. You're good at figuring out how systems work, and if you figure this one out you can be better than even the naturals.
If you keep at it, you'll get more comfortable, and you might even start to enjoy it. At the extreme you will find that when you better understand social dynamics it frees you to actually enjoy the people themselves on occasion.
If you ask for the phone number, she might say no. If you don't ask for the number, you definitely won't get it. If all you do is think about asking for the phone number, you won't get it. So, ask for the phone number. You might get it. If you ask and don't get it, then your attitude should be 'screw her', and go after the next one you find interesting.
It's a percentage game for most of us. Keep a log for fun. Track 100 approaches and keep score of the number closes and dates. This, to some degree, dehumanizes the objects of your desire and makes the interaction less personal, which can help your frame. Alas, failure is never fun. Take notes on what worked and go from there. Some of my number closes started with the epic opener: "Hey."
Go out when you're in the right frame to approach, like it's a mission. If I don't get the number, I chalk it up as batting practice. Or free amusement.
Funny thing that this blog and others have taught me is about swallowing the red pill. While I still am a old school "knows he's fallen" Christian, I was raised gamma. Since taking it, the shells are lifted from my eyes. Was in the inside position of trying to start up a potentially very dangerous chemical process. High stress. We tripped down. Was asked if anyone wanted to go home early, we three inside operators were the only ones that wanted to. All of us are burned out from 40+ nights. The wife is sick and asleep, I wanted whiskey. Went to the bar I occasiongly go to. The bar tender is a redhead with killer curves. A bit of a freak if dubious sources are believed. I see an old buddy who was a jarhead in VN. Met him and his friend who is the son of a mutual friend. We started shooting the shit. In walks a very large, well dressed black man. Turns out he is a friend I haven't seen in a while. I buy a couple of rounds because these are good folks and I can't spend the money I'm making. When I left while it was still safe to drive. Her eyes got sparkly, and told me if I could be off she would be here tonight. After I talked to her about my wife and kid's?
Your guess is as good as mine.
Play honey badger inner game. She may blow you off. But you don't care. Unless she is devoted and has your kid's.
1. Looking down is the standard body language response in all cultures everywhere when a woman meets a man she considers above her/attractive. To the side is the brush off. Other clues: brushing back her hair and showing palm is a positive sign. Showing the back of the hand is giving you "the back of the hand".
2. "How does an introvert get past the severe drain caused by social interaction in order to maintain a strong frame without having to do a lot of talking?"
Disassociate yourself from your emotions. They aren't "you" anyway, but rather a function of the organism, different for everyone based on natural wiring and life experiences. This is best done by reading texts based on esoteric religions, particularly the Eastern ones. Another alternative is reading some Vernon Howard, a lot of which is on-line.
I'm serious. It's one of the best things I ever did, and it's not that hard to do.
S comes across to me as a very very confused Gamma. Too much anger comes thru in his writing. Repeatedly using strong negative connotative words such as "contempt, intense dislike, infuriating" etc. He considers himself "bookish", yet abhors coffee shops...which is one of the better places to kick back a read a book from my Sig perspective. Claims self confidence but is asking for women help. My head is spinning from reading this stuff.
Vox set him right here with his spot on response. But alas, I can't help but believe it's just a hopeless scene for him.
"It is always best to leave a woman with her hamster spinning."
Reminds me something I heard long ago that works well. Either leave them laughing or confused as hell.
S wrote, "How does a self-confident, bookish INTJ move past our natural dislike of other people?"
As a true Sigma and super-intelligent INTJ myself, I ask, why would you want to? Use 'em for entertainment or pleasure if you're bored, then get the hell out of the monkey house and back to the land of the lucid (population: one).
No, not at all. I'm on the extreme end of introverted, but am almost endlessly entertained by women. They are like television with far better writers.
I also like conversing with children for the same reason. Now, if I have to be socially "on," that wears me out fast, but the nice thing I've discovered is that I don't have to be particularly engaged to be involved and entertained by the emotions of the people under my natural umbrella of protection.
And as far as their opinions, I don't care what they are - they are usually silly and self-involved, whether or not they are "correct." Every woman's got one, as they say. You should just enjoy the fact that she's so willing to show you her hers. After all, she just wants you to stick your finger in it. As long as she's not obnoxious about her presentation, who cares what it actually looks like?
"How did they meet?"-Vincent Vega
"I don't know, however 'people meet'"-Jules Winfield
The eternal enigma to the socially awkward.
I am an admitted delta. But given my gamma beginings, I don't consider this a failure, per se. That said, my N is well North of the average. An introvert myself, the traditional group settings (bars, college parties, etc) where people meet never generated much luck in romance or sportfucking. Coincidentally, mom always told me that as a child, I played well one-on-one with others, but never flourished in group settings. If you don't thrive in traditional settings, than simply don't go there. I've found getting laid went from tedium to clockwork once I adjusted my approach to being simply alone and away from the buddies.
For the introvert, maintaining a sense of mystery, in which you're the focus of her attention is the most direct means to rousing and maintaing her interest. The more context she has to measure you by (and against), the less likely she is esteem what you have to offer (i.e. casual group settings). This is why it's best to "snipe" your pray in one-on-one settings. A further benefit is when you do make a gaffaw, she's more likely to write it off to keep social equilibrium than to write you off and go on to the other kinda cute guy.
Lastly, try to couple a singular setting by being in an environment that plays to your strengths. Be it skiing, jogging, photography, whatever you enjoy/excel at.
Lastly, as Vox said, if you're relegated to a traditional social setting, keep introductions brief and end it on a high note (i.e. saying something funny or cheeky) and make sure YOU end it and walk away first. To do so is ipso facto ending it on your terms, leaving you in control, and laying the groundwork for later that night or the next time you bump into each other.
So you don't agree with the PUA concept that the man ought to do 90% of the talking?
Ok, thanks. However, it looks like college may be a bad investment for the kiddos LOL. Maybe I find a VC :)
Just thought there was a book, website or article. I appreciate your advice.
Carlotta
You know, I don't get this question if he is a Sigma.
My Husband gets hit on all the time. I mean he went out to eat with his Father yesterday and when trying to pay the bill a women came up and told him how nice his eyes were and that she couldn't help noticing how handsome he was. He said thanks and ignored her. She wouldn't leave. They left. When she kept talking to him he just got in his car and then they laughed hysterically. I am telling you, it happens all the time. His Father and him like to joke about it because it happens all the time when they go out and yes, he is wearing his ring. It happens when me and several of our children are with him!
He is not a talker per se. But people will not shut up around him and tell him all their business. He listens when he wants to. And walks away when he doesn't. He talks and controls the conversation when he wants to.
I doubt he cares what they think. He rarely cares what the heck I think (if he thinks he is right and I am wrong).
I don't mean to be rude, but I dont' think you are a sigma. And being an introvert never stopped anyone from getting girls.
Carlotta
LOL. I see this with my Husband when he lets someone chat on and on about something. Then tells me it was basically because he was enjoying how insane it was.
He will even appear to be egging them on. At least until he is bored.
I think he lets me chat on and on for the same reason sometimes LOL ;)
Carlotta
More advice for the poster:
Introvert Game relies heavily on nonverbal communication. Talk less, say more.
-Fix your voice. (See Ch. 3 of Strauss' Rules of the Game.)
-Fix your posture.
-Chin up, eyelids at half-mast.
-Move slowly and deliberately.
-Stop giving a fuck. (Anyway, it's bad for your health.)
This isn't an exhaustive list, because it's just the projection of inner game.
(It's not in my nature to write concisely, but I had to get into character. Enjoy it while it lasts.)
Which PUA are you reading? This runs counter to the Heartiste school of thought.
Though I'm not a Sigma, I'll throw in with Anonymous here. Every INTJ has an inner Machiavelli who enjoys screwing with people for the hell of it.
I don't get this whole dislike of people, and contempt for them, that comes through in so many of you "introverted" type commenters. I guess it is because you deep down believe that you and your thoughts, your activities, and your lifestyle are so superior in God's eyes that you can safely justify someday to Him that you were correct in treating most of the other human beings on this planet as if they were little better than animals.
For about 6 months in college, I earned money by working in a home for retarded adults. Since my IQ is between 145 and 150, this was a struggle at first, as I had to develop a LOT of patience. But I quickly noticed that MY attitude when I entered the room would dictate how the rest of the interaction would go, smoothly or with difficulty. And I learned to appreciate the little quirks that each one had that would be interesting.
In essence, I was learning the human condition from those who weren't smart enough to put on the social masks that other people wear most of the time. Most people want their encounter with you to be a positive one, because that makes their life better too.
So, carrying around this contempt for people, even if you don't think you show it, is going to come through in body language and tone of voice and you'll get exactly what you want from every single encounter. Which is a confirmation of your opinion that other people suck, are stupid, are boring, don't matter, are shallow, etc...In my opinion, your frame is poor and you're allowing your past experiences and opinions of people to control each encounter, rather than the other way around.
I'm a stocky Chewbacca kind of a Sigma and test out either INTJ or ENTJ depending on my mood, and would find it pretty easy to pick up a girl in a book shop. Holy smokes, I can't think of a better place to meet a bright, reasonably interesting sort of girl - you may not find a lot of gym rats there but it would be hard to avoid interesting energetic types if you were open to it. When a girl looks at you, eyeball her right back until she looks away. Then a full frontal assault up the hill is the right maneuver here. Walk up to her, say just about anything to her, stand tall, say it confidently with a bit of a smirk, and see if she wants to have a coffee and chat about the book she's got, or the one you have. If she's interested in you, she'll agree and it's up to you to close the deal. Then listen intently, ask smart questions, look in her eyes a lot, lean in to speak with her conspiratorially, confess some sin against majority tastes (whatever, don't be creepy but be your interesting oddball Sigma self, but don't "hate Harry Potter" or some Oprah selection, but hating Jonathan Franzen because he's an uptight twat who hates the middle class is perfectly alright) then ask to continue the conversation elsewhere or for a date *on a specific day* or insist on a good alternate day for it. It's important to remember at all times there are plenty of other fish in the sea; you'd love if this one fell in your boat but if she doesn't and she's showing a little reluctance, it's time for a cheerful oh well, no worries, nice chatting, I gotta go now. Leave her wanting more, do it a little abruptly and get her to show her hand, she may give you the "wait a minute, I'm not free this Friday but next Thursday" deal.
A confident non-conformist with a strong sense of self should view places like bookshops where bright, probably under-attentioned girls tend to be found as The Happy Hunting Ground.
I'm nearly certain I remember Roissy saying somewhere that a man ought to talk most of the time. However, I cannot find these posts right now (but it would not be difficult to dig up posts about the value of verbal intelligence and smooth talking ability, all of which presuppose that one should talk a lot).
But, the Mystery Method definitely states that the man ought to talk constantly.
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/conversational-momentum/
By the way, on how to approach without doing much talking, check out Aaron Sleazy. He, like Vox, is an introvert/intellectual who sees little value in socialization and small talk. Nevertheless, he is an alpha male (and he is not a natural, so he knows how to explain his success).
Vox,
I know you almost never respond to these questions in the comment section, but I'll ask anyway.
Without doing a lot of talking, and expressing your intentions directly, is there, then, not much opportunity to "demonstrate value"? This is one of the core principles of the Mystery Method, to approach indirectly and do a lot of "DHVing" through conversation and so forth. If you approach directly she can only judge on the basis of your looks.
I remember that post fondly as one of my wake-up calls. The takeaway is that you have the responsibility to keep the conversation moving, so any awkward silences are your fault. But when the girl is a talker, you just have to get her going.
The uniting theme here is the universal female desire for unpredictable men. The man who can’t be pigeonholed, who can’t be readily discerned like the mass of mediocrities she encounters every day, is catnip to her pussy. A simple pull of conversation into an unforeseen direction can mean the difference between boyfriend excuses and helpful reminders that she lives right down the street from you.
I am less familiar with Mystery, so I'll defer to your memory, dice.
You don't have to dislike people to want to spend quite a bit of time alone, without them.
I would agree that attitude has a huge impact on life.
Not necessarily. Though perhaps religious convictions can trump that.
I don't really see how one can be considered to be "leading and energizing a conversation" if the other party is doing most of the talking, but whatever.
Mystery definitely claims that the man should be talking most of the time, at least in the initial interaction, and so does Roosh, and they're both following a similar pickup philosophy as Roissy.
So - you think one can establish alpha dominance over a woman with very little talking? That's interesting. I am an omega so I wouldn't know.
I don't really see how one can be considered to be "leading and energizing a conversation" if the other party is doing most of the talking, but whatever.
I wrote all of two original sentences addressing this specifically. This was the better one:
But when the girl is a talker, you just have to get her going.
If you like, use an employer/employee metaphor. The employee may do all of the work, but it's the employer's responsibility to get the work done.
I'd accuse you of being thick, but I see clearly we're from separate schools of theory. Your prose suggests that you're a shade more extraverted (or just young?), so Mystery's method ought to yield better results for you.
Great reading as always.
Speaking of lack of interest in socialization and small talk. I feel rather guilty, there are nice people at the gym and pool but what is it with "the talk?"
Everyone my age just says, "hi", work out, leaves. The boomers are bobbers; they bob on one machine or one singular area of the pool for their entire work out while talking. Some times I come home so drained not from my work outs but from my ears, head and yapper hurting from having to interact with all those people.
"And firm, so firm."
Being baptized, were you?
My attitude is Sigmas used to be Alphas but really don't want the attention any more and see no value in leading a bunch of idiots. When people suggest they take a leadership role, they always demur. They spend little time scouring the instructions figuring out which slot they fit into. Sigmas are hard to find because they aren't going to be palsy walsy telling you they're a sigma. Although they know a lot of people, they're pretty much loners and have few real friends. They're apparently socially adept but standoffish. They ignore most people, especially unattractive women. They can walk through a crowd as if it isn't there. They have a tendency to intimidate men and attract women, who will often start the conversation or do odd little favors. Unattractive women learn not to do that. The surest sign someone is not a sigma is to hear hear him say he's a sigma. The surest sign a sigma is a sigma is he gives you the impression he doesn't think enough of you to care what you think of him.
However, just to put this in context - my take on alphas is they overweight former quarterback who makes a ton of money selling used cars. They are certainly not tatooed, muscled bikers. Those people are generally way too needy.
Earphones/mp3 player is the best answer. Have them on when after stretching (or during). You can pull them down briefly to acknowledge those you want to or simply smile. Most will leave you alone. Not to mention I generally loathe the music played at gyms and prefer my own soundtrack to work out to.
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