Wednesday, October 8, 2014

Tolkien on intersexual relations

JRR Tolkien explores the mistaken avenue of chivalry and the backwards nature of pedestalization.
There is in our Western culture the romantic chivalric tradition still strong, though as a product of Christendom (yet by no means the same as Christian ethics) the times are inimical to it. It idealizes 'love' — and as far as it goes can be very good, since it takes in far more than physical pleasure, and enjoins if not purity, at least fidelity, and so self-denial, 'service', courtesy, honour, and courage. Its weakness is, of course, that it began as an artificial courtly game, a way of enjoying love for its own sake without reference to (and indeed contrary to) matrimony. Its centre was not God, but imaginary Deities, Love and the Lady. It still tends to make the Lady a kind of guiding star or divinity – of the old-fashioned 'his divinity' = the woman he loves – the object or reason of noble conduct. This is, of course, false and at best make-believe. The woman is another fallen human-being with a soul in peril. But combined and harmonized with religion (as long ago it was, producing much of that beautiful devotion to Our Lady that has been God's way of refining so much our gross manly natures and emotions, and also of warming and colouring our hard, bitter, religion) it can be very noble. Then it produces what I suppose is still felt, among those who retain even vestigiary Christianity, to be the highest ideal of love between man and woman. Yet I still think it has dangers. It is not wholly true, and it is not perfectly 'theocentric'. It takes, or at any rate has in the past taken, the young man's eye off women as they are, as companions in shipwreck not guiding stars. (One result is for observation of the actual to make the young man turn cynical.) To forget their desires, needs and temptations. It inculcates exaggerated notions of 'true love', as a fire from without, a permanent exaltation, unrelated to age, childbearing, and plain life, and unrelated to will and purpose. (One result of that is to make young folk look for a 'love' that will keep them always nice and warm in a cold world, without any effort of theirs; and the incurably romantic go on looking even in the squalor of the divorce courts).

Women really have not much part in all this, though they may use the language of romantic love, since it is so entwined in all our idioms. The sexual impulse makes women (naturally when unspoiled more unselfish) very sympathetic and understanding, or specially desirous of being so (or seeming so), and very ready to enter into all the interests, as far as they can, from ties to religion, of the young man they are attracted to. No intent necessarily to deceive: sheer instinct: the servient, helpmeet instinct, generously warmed by desire and young blood. Under this impulse they can in fact often achieve very remarkable insight and understanding, even of things otherwise outside their natural range: for it is their gift to be receptive, stimulated, fertilized (in many other matters than the physical) by the male. Every teacher knows that. How quickly an intelligent woman can be taught, grasp his ideas, see his point – and how (with rare exceptions) they can go no further, when they leave his hand, or when they cease to take a personal interest in him. But this is their natural avenue to love. Before the young woman knows where she is (and while the romantic young man, when he exists, is still sighing) she may actually 'fall in love'. Which for her, an unspoiled natural young woman, means that she wants to become the mother of the young man's children, even if that desire is by no means clear to her or explicit.

36 comments:

Kirk Parker said...

Wow. Source?

ApolloKioku said...

Agreed, wow. It's from a letter to Michael Tolkien 6-8 March 1941. Read the whole thing.

"Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament. .... There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves upon earth, and more than that: Death: by the divine paradox, that which ends life, and demands the surrender of all, and yet by the taste (or foretaste) of which alone can what you seek in your earthly relationships (love, faithfulness, joy) be maintained, or take on that complexion of reality, of eternal endurance, which every man's heart desires."

Doorstop said...

Thanks for posting this. Such a detailed and accurate observation would be impressive regardless of the author, but coming from Tolkien it's downright astonishing!

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Awesome, Vox. This should be required reading for Churchians and tradcons everywhere.

therationalmale.com said...

Good insight as would be expected from Tolkein, however it's naive to think women "have not much part in all of this". That in itself is a romanticization and pedestalization of the feminine nature.

Perhaps in 1941 this was more difficult to see, but in 2014 women are all too proud to make their 'part in all this' known to anyone who'll listen.

technogypsy said...

The pdf is online at http://85.17.122.176/bookreader.php/139008/The_Letters_of_J.RRTolkien.pdf. Letter 40. One of the big changes they made in that damned movie was the women. Even my then 9 year old was screaming about that when we saw it.

JCclimber said...

The man had great insight, but as important, was a wordsmith of excellent order. Even in a letter to his son.

Morpheus said...

Tolkien was clearly a "misogynist". :)

Morpheus said...

Best thing I've read on the flaws in pedestalization of women

Corvinus said...

@therationalmale.com

Heh, women still don't have much to do with all of this. Tolkien's right. They just do most of the talking.

Heck, I don't even think feminism would be getting anywhere were it not for a whole lot of ardent bureaucratic male feminist Gammas and naive PC Deltas going along with it.

Bill Solomon said...

"Heck, I don't even think feminism would be getting anywhere were it not for a whole lot of ardent bureaucratic male feminist Gammas and naive PC Deltas going along with it." The very fact that so many men are deltas and gammas is proof of the power of the manipulative nature of women on a personal level. I don't know about you but when I was a boy, my dad beat the alpha out of me at my mothers bidding. It's not hard to close your eyes to the truth when people persecute you for believing it.

Kirk Parker said...

Thanks for the pointers!

I understand Vox not quoting the entire thing, but really the introductory paragraph is every bit as good (and makes one think Nora Ephron had read it.)

Eric said...

Heck, I don't even think feminism would be getting anywhere were it not for a whole lot of ardent bureaucratic male feminist Gammas and naive PC Deltas going along with it.

I think the problem lies more with the alphas who benefit immensely from female promiscuity and delayed marriage. The fact that it's all couched in pseudo-intellectual nonsense doesn't mean they don't realize what's going on.

Corvinus said...

I think the problem lies more with the alphas who benefit immensely from female promiscuity and delayed marriage.

@Eric
Not really. An alpha doesn't have a scarcity mentality. If women were chaste and married early, alphas would still be able to get married to a hot 18-year-old and devote all their energies to their business or whatever. If anything, delayed marriage and crappy women make alphas somewhat more frustrated and cynical about women than they'd be otherwise, even if they'd have higher N counts.

I suspect it was actually gammas who wanted and pushed for slutty women and delayed marriage, as they imagined that they'd have a better chance to bang a hottie rather than see her quickly married off to some "jerk" and therefore locked away. There's a reason male feminists are disproportionately gammas.

Krul said...

Every teacher knows that. How quickly an intelligent woman can be taught, grasp his ideas, see his point – and how (with rare exceptions) they can go no further, when they leave his hand, or when they cease to take a personal interest in him.

My own observations match this very well. Females seem to be better at grasping concepts in a classroom situation but much less likely to pursue the subjects independently.

cailcorishev said...

Corvinus, agreed. Promiscuous alphas benefit from the sluttiness encouraged by feminism, but I don't think many of them pushed for it. As you say, they wouldn't have seen the need. It was the gammas, the white knights, the guys who think calling themselves feminists and talking about how pro-choice they are will get them laid, who thought that giving women more power and freedom would make things better (women being more moral and spiritual, after all) and make women grateful enough to marry/sleep with them.

Feather Blade said...

however it's naive to think women "have not much part in all of this".

The point he's making is that women don't have much to do with whether or how men pedestalize them.
Men will pedestalize women regardless of any evidence the woman provides regarding suitability for pedestalization.

Women will take advantage of this inclination in men, of course, but they are, after all, are the pragmatic sex, remember?

Bill Solomon said...

"Women will take advantage of this inclination in men, of course, but they are, after all, are the pragmatic sex, remember?" Women take advantage of it in varying degrees, i.e. not every woman is an orbiter chaser, doesn't that in itself offer evidence that it's a moral choice rather than a practical one.

1sexistpig2another said...

Tolkien was clearly a "misogynist". :)

A badge to be worn with honor in today's society.

Desiderius said...

Cail,

"Corvinus, agreed. Promiscuous alphas benefit from the sluttiness encouraged by feminism, but I don't think many of them pushed for it."

See: Hugh Hefner.

Civilization depends on them actively pushing back, aligning alphas among men with alphas among women.

In Homeric terms, making sure Achilles gets the girl, not Agamemnon (the former) or Paris (the latter). That way lies ruin.

Desiderius said...

Smaller family sizes has also led many alphas to raise their daughters to be the sons they never had, rather than good wives and mothers.

ray said...

Romanticism undergirded the spirit and mythology of the Fifties and Sixties. It's obvious in the popular music of the time, utterly divorced from death metal and rap.


Albigensians, Cathari, the ancient troubs -- rooted in Gnostic sects, not Christianity. New duds for the Sixties.


The big folkie club in so-cal was The Troubadour.



The woman is another fallen human-being with a soul in peril. But combined and harmonized with religion (as long "ago it was, producing much of that beautiful devotion to Our Lady that has been God's way of refining so much our gross manly natures and emotions, and also of warming and colouring our hard, bitter, religion) it can be very noble."


Uh... what? Our Lady? With CAPS? Really? You mean the woman who gave birth to Christ?


God 'refines' the 'grossness' of our maleness -- our masculinity created and molded in the very image of the LORD -- via 'Our Lady'? Where's that in the Bible? I missed that chapter.



JRR goes on about how goofy it is to worship Almighty Woman. Then he goes and does it.


For Tolkien and his pals, the 'hardness and bitterness' of following King Jeshua could only be cured by devotion to...a pagan goddess, in reality.



Sounds like Those Bad Boomers who Ruined It All may have had some pre-help, :O)

Eric said...

If women were chaste and married early, alphas would still be able to get married to a hot 18-year-old...

Yes, but only one. This way by the time he gets married to a 25 year old at age 35, he's slept with dozens (or more) different women.

Doorstop said...

Ease up, Ray. Yes, Tolkien was Catholic, which makes his unusually observant and clear-eyed commentary all the more astonishing, especially when you look at the gyno-pedestalization practiced by modern Protestant Churchians who don't even have the excuse of being programmed to worship the mother of Christ. And if my understanding of scripture is correct, God created Adam in His image and then later took something from him to create Eve. This would imply that some of the feminine virtues may be present in our Creator, that may not be instinctual in human males, and especially in fallen human males. God can create life by Himself, but he's made humans such that we cannot procreate without there being a male and a female, and the importance of motherhood extends well beyond those first 9 months.

ray said...



Ease up? Why? So you can feel better about worshipping, ah I mean, showing devotion to Mary?


No.




'And if my understanding of scripture is correct, God created Adam in His image and then later took something from him to create Eve'


Well you can read, but that's hardly understanding.


God created the male IN HIS OWN IMAGE, and then created the female, NOT directly from his OWN IMAGE but from the created male.


That might 'imply' anything you want, which is pretty darn convenient. Unfortunately there is no scriptural evidence for your implication.


Thanks for the lesson on God. I'll let you know if the Madonna Shrine I'm using for my current doorstop wears out.

Corvinus said...

@ray @Doorstop

Actually, Catholics don't worship the Virgin Mary. That's just Protestant baloney.

And sola scriptura just makes a mess out of everything, which is why there are so many Protestant sects constantly arguing with each other. In fact, the only thing they can agree on is that Catholicism isn't real Christianity.

If you think about it, Protestantism is simply shitlibbery applied to Christianity. (And the Church of Vatican II is Protestantism applied to Catholicism, for that matter.)

Desiderius said...

Corvinus,

"And sola scriptura just makes a mess out of everything, which is why there are so many Protestant sects constantly arguing with each other."

You're such a fan you've decided to join in too?

"In fact, the only thing they can agree on is that Catholicism isn't real Christianity."

Not so much. If its between Stalin and Wojtyla, we're taking Wojtyla.

It's looking more and more as if those are the choices, at least for the time being.

Corvinus said...

Not so much. If its between Stalin and Wojtyla, we're taking Wojtyla.

Which brings up my point about the Church of Vatican II. I'd take Stalin over Unsaint JP2 anyday (Matthew 10:28).

Bill Solomon said...

Damn Catholics wrecking the thread with their off topic discussions. Just cause Catholics are better doesn't mean that they are the only christianity. If God wanted us all to accept peters authority unconditionally, he would have told us, not just peter.

Bill Solomon said...

Also since when is the combox section hit by spam?

Desiderius said...

"I'd take Stalin over Unsaint JP2 anyday"

Dust, sandals.

Good luck with that company.

Doorstop said...

@ Ray

I'm not, and never have been, Catholic. Never been a Mary devotee either.

Adam himself said that Woman was taken out of Man. If you think it was only a rib that was removed, or that none of the feminine virtues can be found in God, that's cool but the attempt to disqualify by pointing and yelling "Papist" is even less effective against me than it is against Tolkien

LP 999/Eliza said...

Fabulous analysis.

Dorsey47 said...

@Doorstop

"feminine virtues can be found in God"

I think a feminine quality of God is: He wants to be pursued. He is jealous at the thought that another could get our attention. This is because of His beauty. He is also graceful, a virtue I have been told is feminine.

Trần Văn Quảng said...

The man had great insight, but as important, was a wordsmith of excellent order. Even in a letter to his son.

Kiem tra ten mien
Tao web mien phi
Mẹo vặt cuộc sống
Ten mien mien phi
Trần Văn Quảng
Ga choi hay

Pussy-ManiaGirls: http://goo.gl/w9Oepq said...

watching my collection, we have upload more video at here:

Collection Part 1:

Doggy Style and In Missionary Position

Hot Sex Anal With Amazing Girl Friend

Sex Under Hot Lights Bad Girls

Give Me The Cum

Cum In My Panties

Nude Amateur Teen Girls

Sexy Brunette Girls

Young Kinky Sluts

Busty Tattoo Chick On Car

Young Asian fucked anal

Latina Havana Ginger gets

Teen Threesome Porn

Hot Blowjob

Amateur Pulls Down Tanga

Sweet girl amazing hot

Sexy japanese babes getting their tight

TEEN BLONDE ANAL SEX ORGY




Collection Part 2:


Hot asian blowjob and pussy creampie

Sucking dick, Audrey put vegetables in all holes

Blonde love fuck

Naomi Russell And Her Royal Ass

Sexy blonde gives blowjob in the car

ASIAN XXX PORN VIDEO

JAPANESE XXX PORN VIDEO

ARABIC XXX PORN VIDEO

HARDCORE PORN VIDEO

GAY XXX PORN VIDEO

WATCH STREAMING PORN VIDEO

USA CELEBS XXX PORN

LATINA XXX PORN

LESBIAN XXX PORN

Hardcore Porn Celebrity

HOT TURKEY PORN MOVIE

INDIAN NUDES CELEBRITIES VIDEOS

UZBEKS Fuck PORN VIDEOS

HOT RASTA GIRL


100% MAKE you satisfy......








































Reply Delete

Post a Comment

NO ANONYMOUS COMMENTS.