A couple of law professors eventually slip a little affordable family formation heresy into Slate's XX after the usual Bad White Man verbiage:I suspect this is giving Lily considerably more credit for her ability to link cause-and-effect than is justified. Here she is, literally in tears over her inability to get to her two jobs that she isn't going to be able to work effectively when the child arrives, but she's insisting that she can support herself.
Just Say No
For white working-class women, it makes sense to stay single mothers.
By Naomi Cahn and June Carbone
The following is based on Marriage Markets: How Inequality Is Remaking the American Family, out in May 2014 from Oxford University Press.
Lily had grown up in a rural town, more than an hour from Kansas City, Mo. She was four months pregnant and not feeling well, and she was in tears. She was also not married, but that’s not what was upsetting her. The car that she needed to get to her two jobs in the city had broken down, and she had no other way to get to work. We asked whether her boyfriend, Carl, could help her. Lily frowned. She had recently broken up with Carl, she explained, because “I can support myself. I always have. I can support myself and our kid. I just can’t support myself, the kid, and him.”
You know, Lily, if Carl is such a loser that you don't want to marry him, why did you want 50% of your child's genes to be his? Are you really that convinced that your 50% are going to be so awesome that your kid won't wind up a loser?
So, instead of having Carl work while Lili stays home and raises the child, the Brave New Society of Bastards has Lili trying to simultaneously work and raise the child alone, while Carl spends his time living off the government while pursuing his next Lili.
This should be sustainable.
49 comments:
Man, they are really openly trying to destroy the family now, huh?
This: "this is giving Lily considerably more credit for her ability to link cause-and-effect than is justified."
I am thankful now that, thanks to the Manosphere, I am aware that women are far more likely to engage in rhetorical and emotionally-driven thought and decision-making than I ever, ever knew. Or, in many cases, most women are abjectly incapable of following the dialectic or any cause-and-effect lines of thought. No one in my entire life dared to say such a thing was prevalent among women, or much less say it repeatedly and in such a manner in which I could process it, come to accept it as fact, not be bitter or scared of it, and just learn to accept my much-needed role as MAN, shut the crazy talk down, and take the lead. And to be ready for that shit to pop up in any moment, particularly when they want something (anything, even if it's you) and are given leeway to make any sort of decision. The rationalizations that women come up with due to fear, or emotional impulse, emotionally-driven self-delusion, unchecked desires, or the desire for ever-increasing control and "safety", are unbelievable.
I am seeing this is the norm, not the exception. This is why men in the past locked down their daughters until they had been officially married off. Unleashing this type of baby-making idiocy is highly dangerous to the well-being of not only her immediate family, herself, and her poor bastard, uh, bastards, but also society at large.
Not just unsustainable, but disastrous. And note that the delusion has only gotten deeper since she became pregnant. No trace of having had a serious reality check (also the fault of so-called 'family' and 'friends'), of recognizing and admitting to all the mistakes she herself made leading up to this point. No trace of having thought through the future necessities and demands of a limited 24-hour life of, at a minimum, keeping both baby and mommy healthy and alive. Nope, just delusional full-throttle ahead, American "I can do it all!!", "I can take care of myself", "I don't need anybody", "I am Woman".
This IS the end game of feminism. And it should be professed, declared, and taught as such. Feminism will die with delusional little girls like this, be they single mothers or childless careerists wondering what it would have been like that actually use their wombs to create another human life.
Her child and subsequent grandchildren are on the road to being half-civilized. The post-modern age should be a real hoot.
This is why I mock "equality" and "strong women" at every turn.
Take away the threat of the EEOC and free-association-violation laws. What women would ever be employable EVER AGAIN? What man in his right mind - hell, what WOMAN - would hire women for something a man could and would readily do?
Take away every kind of government assistance. What woman would ever be able to raise a kid by herself?
Back in my blue pill days, with my first wife, I often pondered her ability to get into a pretty tough college.
She absolutely could not follow a chain of logic on ANYTHING past A leads to B. So A leads to B, leads to C was beyond her grasp. Straight A student in high school (thanks to extra credit for never missing class, and doing homework on time).
I wrote it off to her mother smoking like a chimney while pregnant and that she had a learning disability. I was young and had the love goggles on.
It has taken me awhile to realize that she was the norm. Not all women are like that, but enough. I think it might be related to the need for women to not consciously think about the cause and effect between sex and childbirth too much, or they would stop having sex as well.
Reminds me of this:
Jobless mum advises her daughter, 19, to get pregnant - for an easy life on benefits: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2605677/Mother-two-never-worked-encouraged-daughter-pregnant-council-house-easy-life-benefits.html
Sinead Clarkson, 36, has no qualifications, has never worked and rakes in £1,200 a month from the State.
Melissa became pregnant six months ago, and is now in line for an extra £400 a month courtesy of taxpayers when her baby is born, as well as a two-bedroom council house.
Her mother, who has another daughter, Amie, aged 12, said: ‘I am better off on benefits. I refuse to work for a pittance and struggle.
‘I don’t have any qualifications so it is easier to claim money than persuade an employer to give me a job."
That's just a sample, read the whole article for the full mindblowingness of it all. She gets almost as much as I get paid after tax deductions! For FREE, and I work full time then have to pay for all my bills and house too.
On one hand some people are arguing she's actually right, WHY work for what you can get for nothing, simply by using a random bloke as a sperm donor. And then of course if the benefits stop later, have another one or "persuade" an employer to give a job, (by taking advantage of quotas in that x% of roles must be filled by women, regardless of ability).
I often pondered her ability to get into a pretty tough college.
I don't know when you met your wife, but keep in mind you lose skills you don't use. A have a couple college textbooks on my bookshelf that might as well be in Sanskrit at this point. And these are classes I as at the top of the class in Abstract Algebra, Theory of Computation, etc. If you get out of college jump into a make work job, push some paper around and spend your free time reading Cosmo, People, and following whats hot this season your ability to engage in critical thinking will disappear in a couple years. Probably even faster with the emotional supercharging the social media provides.
"So, instead of having Carl work while Lili stays home and raises the child, the Brave New Society of Bastards has Lili trying to simultaneously work and raise the child alone, while Carl spends his time living off the government while pursuing his next Lili."
No, Vox. She works to buy booze and drugs. Lili, Carl, and the child ALL live off welfares paid for by the taxes I'm paying...$30K/year in income tax alone.
As Glenn Reynolds so often says, that which cannot continue forever, will not continue forever.
Civilization is a bubble that is destined to burst, because civilization destroying behaviors are rewarded more nowadays than civilization building ones.
The only question is how long it will take before we get to total collapse. The 'if' is not in doubt, only the 'when'.
This should be sustainable.
The problem is that it has been sustainable for about 15% of the population. Here is a hair raising article on that subject from Return of Kings: How Black America Has Predicted Our Future
For those liberals skimming until offended; yes, the author of the article is black.
if Carl is such a loser that you don't want to marry him, why did you want 50% of your child's genes to be his?
My wife has to be the poster child for choosing her sperm donor poorly.
Her first husband was (and is) a true alpha, successful at everything he does. When they were married he was well on his way to his first million, and today I'd be surprised if his net worth is less than nine figures. She could have had a kid with him.
Before and between marriages, she lived with three different guys for a couple of years each. Two were successful professionals, the other a top executive whose family owns a large part of the island of Kauai. She could have had a kid with any of them, although it might not have been planned or wanted by any of the men.
Her second husband (not me, I'm her third) is a high school dropout. Alcoholism has been passed down from father to son in his family for several generations, and he supplements it with a cocaine habit. Him, she had a son with. Sure enough, the kid has an IQ in the 80s and started on meth in high school.
@unreproducible string
I was her councilor for new student orientation. I ended up helping her through the next 5 years of college before she split a couple days after graduating. Yep, fool that I was, I helped her with homework and paid her way through college.
I will admit that the sex life was pretty spectacular, so at least it had that going for it, and I thank God every day that I happen to remember her that I was never gamma with her. My delta upbringing was chafing however, and it is much more fun to be alpha. It took painful years to unprogram all the delta provider brainwashing. But my new family life is much the better for it.
@ long hexadecimal string
I know it's too late to undo the past... but...
"Her second husband (not me, I'm her third) is a high school dropout. Alcoholism has been passed down from father to son in his family for several generations, and he supplements it with a cocaine habit. Him, she had a son with. Sure enough, the kid has an IQ in the 80s and started on meth in high school."
Why in the HELL would you choose to LEGALLY connect yourself to such a woman, and with such a child? Seriously, you're as nuts as she is. At least she has the excuse of constantly changing hormones to make her irrational. What's your excuse?
For everyone else reading this:
Here is the appropriate demotivator poster which applied first to his wife, and now to him, too.
What's with the gobbledy gook screen names? I see those all the time.
What's with the gobbledy gook screen names?
There are a number of ways to sign in to comment here, but they all involve logging in to another site which then sends your screen name here. Apparently some of them don't do a very good job of it.
"I suspect this is giving Lily considerably more credit for her ability to link cause-and-effect than is justified."
I used to think that solipsistic single moms were the in-place product of the pressures of single parenthood. Now I realize I've run the logic in the wrong direction - the abasing self-absorption is a factor in their becoming single moms in the first place. It's very simple correlation observation. A lot of shit has to go wrong to become a single parent. Some of your choosing, some not. Someone who winds up in that position is likely to have a lot of fallacious or magical thinking going on all over their brain.
That some women think it's a perfectly viable lifestyle choice advertises in the main that they themselves lack a real appreciation of reality.
Why in the HELL would you choose to LEGALLY connect yourself to such a woman, and with such a child?
1. She was smokin' hot. In her younger days she was asked to pose for Playboy (she refused), and at 39 (when we married) she was still at the top of her game. Even now, at 61, she's prettier and in better shape than most women half her age.
2. She's sweet and easy to get along with. She didn't, and doesn't, have any of the attitude problems I so often see described here. She did initiate both her divorces, but for reasons that I consider good and sufficient, and she didn't divorce-rape either husband. (She could easily have gotten a six-figure property settlement--in 1980 dollars--from the first one, but she refused to take a dime.)
3. The kid was only 5 when we married, cute and lovable. Even as a teen, even on drugs, he never turned mean or surly. I pity him for his genetic deficiencies, but I don't regret taking on the job of helping raise him.
All that said, it was stupid of me to get married. We could have just lived together.
You live in a lovely little world, Vox Day, where Clive just sits there like a plate of soggy pasta and grown men point fingers at a pregnant woman trying to work two jobs. Take heart, I'm sure God will hand out extra credit points for your deep understanding of morality.
Just think what would have ensued had Steve raised two eyebrows.
GG, you just don't get it. Women are ina perpetual state of whining about the consequences of their own choices. And men say what they would say to a man... you did this to yourself.
And no, these aren't like men who find themselves in servitude after being ass raped by that family courts, men who did the honorable thing and got burned. These are women who chose the carousel over men with character, blamed it in their own good nature and bad bad men who were bad bad bad.
You're almost funny.
"...you did this to yourself."
Ah, I get it. It's our biological powers of asexual reproduction that you envy.
"Women are in a perpetual state of whining about the consequences of their own choices..."
Clive, the plate of soggy pasta, is the one who is whining because his entire manhood has just been replaced by a 335 dollar welfare check.
" And men say what they would say to a man... you did this to yourself. "
And yet they didn't do it to themselves. They were deliberately written out of the equation and replaced with the power of the state, which speaks more to the breath taking stupidity of men than the bad character of women.
@Badger
"Now I realize I've run the logic in the wrong direction - the abasing self-absorption is a factor in their becoming single moms in the first place. It's very simple correlation observation. A lot of shit has to go wrong to become a single parent. Some of your choosing, some not. Someone who winds up in that position is likely to have a lot of fallacious or magical thinking going on all over their brain.
That some women think it's a perfectly viable lifestyle choice advertises in the main that they themselves lack a real appreciation of reality."
Amen. I suffered from a terrible bout of guilt for having gotten to know and romance a single mom over the internet only to pull back on the relationship shortly after having met her, her son, and seeing and hearing a lot of things that just didn't add up. Long story short, after about 9 months of not talking, i got back in touch with her, went to see her, and after two dates and two days of talking, with her baiting me constantly with things like "you're not going to leave again are you?", she eventually drops the bomb that yes she had gotten married again (which I had suspected due to facebook status changes), but was already getting divorced again and.... had not one, but now TWO sons.
=0
God saved me, period. That is how His Law works. I had never slept with her even though she was more than willing from the first day we met (whilst professing faith in Christ, ha), and while I made several mistakes of my own, fornication was not one of them, thank God. Because not few months later, the poor bastard Austrian dude who did jump in the sack with her (she's objectively a solid 8, if not a 9... and a 10 when she's seducing you) and thought he had hit the jackpot... had no idea what kind of crazy he had stuck his wang into.
So now she's 28, living at home with two sons from two different men of two different races (neither sharing her own ethnicity or home culture) and in the process of divorcing said poor bastard Austrian, who, according to her walked out five days after getting married to her. Of course she got pregnant well before marriage was even a thought. Still wholly delusional, she thinks she'll soon be moving to another part of Brazil to escape the threats and legal battles of her first husband over their child and will be able to raise two young boys all on her lonesome far away from the free shelter and free income her parents (father) are now providing her and her sons. Albeit, she of course always "just wanted a family" and "has her family now" and of course with both of her ex-husbands, "he walked away" or "he decided to leave." Oh, and the second son was "just one night of drinking" and "of course we used protection but we were drunk" and "but I had milk in my breasts so I was really fertile" and "it was just two nights" and "the day of the wedding I didn't want to get married and told my parents but because both families were there I did it"... and on and on and on with da crazy. So much so she could not keep track of her lies and I eventually had proof she was lying to me from the very beginning even about the story behind her first marriage.
The last communication we shared was essentially another "poor me, you didn't man up and stick around" line of manipulation. Just another variation of "where are all the real men?" She had zero awareness of the reality of her life as a single parent with only one son. She had zero awareness of the impact her son would have on the hearts or minds of other men who might be interested in her. And now with two sons, from two different fathers, with two divorces under her belt, she still has not a clue what that means to other males. Solipsism knows no bounds. It just keeps 'em digging deeper and deeper.
GG, your pathetic attempts at winning debates by shaming others aren't very effective once you've proven yourself a fool.
Trust, I'm not interested in shaming anyone, I'm interested in the truth. The truth is, men have been deliberately written out of the equation. I don't make pathetic attempts to win debates, it's a done deal.
As to my proving myself a fool, well, I'm not the gender floating around the manosphere bemoaning " being ass raped by that family courts," now am I?
The beautiful thing about people like GG... is what lies around the corner. Reality. The swinging pendulum.
GG,Lilly's blaming Clive for HER not finding a man who is worth marrying. Do you need Captain Obvious to chaperone you?
@ long hexadecimal string
"All that said, it was stupid of me to get married. We could have just lived together."
Which was precisely my point. an even BETTER option would have been to just keep your own place, and date her until you got sick of all of her stupidity.
>As to my proving myself a fool, well, I'm not the gender floating around the manosphere bemoaning " being ass raped by that family courts," now am I?
Where's my foreskin, cunt?
"GG,Lilly's blaming Clive for HER not finding a man who is worth marrying. Do you need Captain Obvious to chaperone you?"
Captain Obvious would like to point out that it IS because of men like Soggy Pasta that women are now turning to the State for protection rather than towards men.
"The beautiful thing about people like GG... is what lies around the corner. Reality. The swinging pendulum."
I already won the darn game. That pendulum is coming for you.
GG, you ARE foolish. What men and women are complaining about are completely different things.
What women are complaining about would be like a man turning down dozens of quality women while having unprotected sex with women who they know are not on birth control, who have a history of paternity fraud, etc.
What men are complaining about would be the equivalent of a woman being required to fork over the house and money to men who cheat, and maybe even forced to pay for children that aren't theirs.
One is about personal responsibility, and the other is about legal excesses and a corrupt family (kangaroo) court system.
And the fact that you see any sort of equivalence between the two is proof you are a fool.
"One is about personal responsibility, and the other is about legal excesses and a corrupt family (kangaroo) court system."
I realize you are a man Trust, and therefore have a great deal of trouble linking two ideas together, so I'll try to explain it to you once more. The fact that men have frequently failed to take personal responsibility is why we now have a corrupt family court system. The personal is political, remember?
Let me try to break it to you gently, women are not complaining at all, they are redesigning the system to meet their needs. Since this will eventually result in our mutual destruction, I don't care for it much.
an even BETTER option would have been to just keep your own place, and date her until you got sick of all of her stupidity.
Well, we've been married for 22 years, living together for almost 23, and there's nothing about her I'm sick of. Her only stupidity was who she chose to get pregnant with, and that happened before we met.
GG your position is supported by everything except observation and evidence. Back when men were supposedly free to shirk their responsibilities, divorce and illegitimacy were rare. In steps the government, and suddenly the hell that ensues is men's fault despite the.shift in power.
And you accuse.men of being incapable of linking.two thoughts. It is you who are incapable, not bc you are female, but.because you're an idiot.
"Back when men were supposedly free to shirk their responsibilities, divorce and illegitimacy were rare"
No chit, Sherlock. Something changed. Hmmm, what could it be??
"In steps the government, and suddenly the hell that ensues is men's fault..."
Ah, he catches on. Here's the problem Trust, it is not only ineffective to attempt to put the blame on women, it is downright counter productive. Not only do you strengthen the nature of the State's argument essentially justifying the complete removal of men from the equation, you make it impossible for any Carl's that actually do want to provide, to do so.
In the 1960's men in the black community were not victimized by women's bad choices, they were deliberately erased by our Gov's welfare policies. Black men participated in their own replacement by buying into this idea that black women were rejecting them. Black men were played, exactly as white men are being played today. Our Gov, our politicians, our family court system, are very good at social engineering.
You may call me an idiot all you wish, but once again, I am not the one being played here who doesn't even have the wherewithal to ask the right questions.
You're not answering them either, though, cunt.
Kinda sorta OT -- divorced men almost 10 times as likely to commit suicide as divorced women...
http://jech.bmj.com/content/57/12/993.full
Which isn't surprising, as the women who wanted the marriages to end are going to be less depressed about the divorces than the men who didn't want the marriages to end.
"You're not answering them either, though, cunt."
Yeah, I am. I've been asking the right questions for a long time. I'd trust that you had some answers too, if y'all weren't so busy calling women the c-word and blowing your heads off.
What is it with men and their fondness for the sea-word
Carl is a man who has gone his own way. Alot of them sponging around. And these men, complaining about feminism as they do, are doing just fine with it. If one girlfriend gets fed up with supporting him, the narcissist won't have too much trouble finding another source of supply.
You could just as easily say that Carl made a smart decision by not shackling himself to a woman who only cared about the size of his paycheck and was going to leave him as soon as she found someone better.
We used to understand that having to take care of a wife and family made a man grow up, just as caring for a home and children made a woman grow up. Yes, people tried to get their kids ready for marriage and teach them responsibility, but they didn't really get it until they were tempered by the real thing. So we know (according to Lily) that Carl is a layabout as long as he has a girlfriend who accepts that and always has one foot out the door; we don't actually know what kind of man he'd be if girls like Lily stopped slutting with him and set their sights on marriage.
Oh, and by the way: there's a good chance Lily will be back in Carl's bed at some point anyway. She may not want to marry him, but that doesn't mean he no longer turns her on, and she's not gonna stop having sex with someone. If there's no one worth marrying, that someone might as well be Carl, who apparently turned her on enough to stick with through some pretty bad behavior.
Carl had packed his clothes in a "hefty" bag, and got a ride from a neighbor who lives a few mobile - homes from Lil. Carl has already made arrangements to stay with a buddy - Fred has a semi-comfortable sofa in his family room. Things will be dicey for awhile - Fred's a neat freak. Oh, but not to worry. Carl is a rather handsome young man, he will find a better source-of-supply. Perhaps his next girlfriend is but a week away, and owns her own house. As long as he minds her rules, he will be living quite nicely - well, that is until she decides to trade him in for a cat. Cats are less maintenance. Men wanted independent hard charging career women. Be happy.
there's no obligation for women to act in a civil and rational manner. so they won't.
they will drain this planet into a withered husk in a way no male dictator ever could.
Fortunately while women are busy draining this planet into a withered husk, we have fine upstanding men like Carl, collecting their disability checks, impregnating several women, and bemoaning the loss of their foreskins.
Of course, naturally they made sure to pick a Lily whose Carl truly is a loser (at least according to her). Far more common is the girl who turns her nose up at the decent but unexciting guy who has a job and has never spent a night in jail, and keeps dating, marrying, and/or being impregnated by the Carls instead.
we have fine upstanding men like Carl
And the women who bear those men's children.
"And the women who bear those men's children."
Yes, and we can spend the rest of our lives wishing that biology didn't exist and that women could simply wrap their brains around cause and effect, but that does nothing to improve things. Women are going to go right on bearing those men's children because that's what women do.
I believe 80% of men are responsible men and care about women, but those are not the kind of men who give most women tingles. It used to be that women had an incentive to favor the stable providers, now they can use the government to extract support from responsible men whole pursuing sexual relations with cads.
This isn't blaming women, it is blaming legal overreach. You say something's happened to cause the decrease in male responsibility, well the law is what happened.... it made enabled cads at the expense of good men.
It would be like laws sticking good women with the responsibility while enabling sluts to enjoy the perks. Men would do the same thing that women are doing now.
If 99% of men suddenly became chivalrous, rather than the current 60-80%, unless women changed their sociosexual reward system, nothing would change except the proportion. Women would still be lamenting where are all the good men, there would just.be more invisible men and the cads would have 50 times the sex partners instead of 20 times.
You can't only pick one type of person then wonder why you don't have another. This is true of men and some both.
This used to be obvious, but the wonders of liberal education.
"...pursuing sexual relations with cads..."
Women have always pursued relationships with cads, all through history. I have no idea why, it just is. If you get lucky like I did, the "cad" turns out to be delightful and life is good.
"You say something's happened to cause the decrease in male responsibility, well the law is what happened"
Yes Trust, I agree, but something else changed, too. The invention of birth control led women to believe they could now give something away that used to only be provided in exchange for marriage, protection, financial support. Needless to say, men did not complain, they ran with it. Women are the ones who lost value in the equation.
Today we have a situation where not only do men who want to be married get passed over, our entire society has spent years working over Lily, messing with her brain. Much like this article implies, she will be taught that there is something wrong with her if she even considers a relationship with Carl. We actually don't know if Carl is a loser, but the sad part is that it doesn't even matter, she has been thoroughly programmed to believe he is.
I agree that birth control was a game changer. It allowed women to unleash their hypergamy with cads, and unleashed the appetite of cads previously reatrianed by risk. Perhaps it was the not too uncommon failure of birth control that lead to all the laws redirecting the consequences.
We've had some harsh disagreementa but I found the tone of this exchange refreshing.
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